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[Twolanerider]

Had breakfast this morning with an old old friend.  He and his wife (both good friends) have ridden together for, well, as long as I can remember knowing them.  At least 35 years.

Their current bike is a 100th Anniversary Road Glide.  They mutually agree, for several familially important reason, that it is their last bike.  They have both just hit 70 so it's not out of bounds to consider riding the current bike as long they are still able.  Here's the deal:

About a week ago he had to do a panic stop to keep from hitting a dog.  He says it wasn't "that close" but the back end fish tailed just a little and it scared her.  She says "we need ABS."  He says "it won't retro."  She say "we need ABS or I'm not riding."  He says "I'll check it out."

So this morning we chatted. 

If the donor parts are primarily from a 2008 bike I think it's actually just a lot of parts swapping.  Can anyone think of anything I'm missing?  Still just spit balling as haven't taken time to do side by side comparison with parts manuals.

Would needs axles, bearings, spacers and ABS sensors front and rear.  Brake lines from an ABS bike.  Battery tray and ECM caddy for an 08.  ECM and TSSM  and ABS module from the 08 and gauges from a 2004 and newer bike.  Harnesses and handlebar controls from a 2008 bike and the throttle body from fly-by-wire bike.  Because of that there is no retro to deal with for the older cruise control.

Have to change the coil and while could retrofit the newer 2008 harness to the 2003 voltage regulator would prefer to upgrade to the 2006-2009 version of the 3 phase charging system if all this were being done since those parts are often cheap eBay scores. 

I've never paid attention to how the jiffy stand switch mounts on the 08 bikes?  Is that a change to the frame or some bolt on attachment to hold the switch.  If it's a an additional piece on the frame could fab up whatever tab might be needed and weld it on but might be easier to just jumper by the switch.  Any insights on this switch are appreciated.

I know, sounds like a hell of a lot to do on a 12 year old bike that is part of a model that was overbuilt and oversold so has nothing all that special to recommend it.  But this particular bike is very very sentimentally special to this couple.  So if she doesn't retrench on her ABS position this very well might be a winter project for this bike.

Can anyone think of anything I forgot?  I'm not worried with with the fuel pump and sender connections so good there.  What else am I not thinking of?

[Twolanerider]

Oh yeah, he's got handlebars that went on a couple years ago that should already be ok.

[skratch]

I've never paid attention to how the jiffy stand switch mounts on the 08 bikes?  Is that a change to the frame or some bolt on attachment to hold the switch.  If it's a an additional piece on the frame could fab up whatever tab might be needed and weld it on but might be easier to just jumper by the switch.  Any insights on this switch are appreciated.

what jiffy stand switch?  the domestic bikes don't have one.

very interested to see how this works out.

[Twolanerider]

what jiffy stand switch?  the domestic bikes don't have one.

very interested to see how this works out.

My bad.  Thought I remembered all the bikes getting that in 2008?  If so that just made the task slightly easier if they move ahead. 

[Road Dad]

I personally would not upgrade an older HD with the older system ABS. HD had a very poor ABS system up till 2014. (The 2014 models has an excellent ABS system)

You are better of getting some training and practice utilizing your stock brakes or trade for a bike with ABS on it. But I believe that you will not like the old ABS systems.

[Twolanerider]

I personally would not upgrade an older HD with the older system ABS. HD had a very poor ABS system up till 2014. (The 2014 models has an excellent ABS system)

You are better of getting some training and practice utilizing your stock brakes or trade for a bike with ABS on it. But I believe that you will not like the old ABS systems.

The change in 2014 wasn't a change in the ABS system per se but an addition of the linked (Reflex Link in Harley speak) braking to the ABS capability.  Separate capabilities working together.

When Harley first released the new ABS system in 2008 (there had been a cop bike only system on prior models) there were issues.  But a few software upgrades seemed to have ironed the system out pretty well.

As a potential retrofit and upgrade the 14 and newer linked system you suggest simply wouldn't be an option though.  The frame is different which brings with it a different battery, ECM and ABS mounting system.  The ABS system on the 2008 bikes is potentially an option though.  Not because the ABS module is different from 08 to 09 but because the frame from 2008 is close enough to the same that the battery caddy to which the battery, ECM and ABS module mount will fit.  So while the linked brakes as an addition to the ABS system is, at least in my opinion (though some here disagreed when it was discussed last year when the system was released) a definite improvement it's not an option here.

Even if the physical mountings could be accommodated it would cost a lot more.  That's all CAN bus hardware starting with 2014.  So it requires that a LOT more parts get changed even if fitment weren't an issue.  Newer gauges, newer fairing to mount the newer gauges, mounts for the fairing that would have to be one-off fabrications, etc etc etc.  Since this is an exercise that is really more about a great gentleman seeking to keep his wife both with him on the bike and happy than it actually is about ABS if he does this the simpler solution will be just fine.

[CVODON]

My 2009 SERG of course had ABS. I thought it was a fine system. Not sure why people bad mouth it. The ABS pump quit while still under warranty but so did the one on a Firebird we had a few years ago. Just happens.
Don this is a pretty good job, lot of cold nights will pass as this is completed. Good Luck! If they want it then do it. I would try to buy a salvage bike, park them side by side and have at it.

[Twolanerider]

My 2009 SERG of course had ABS. I thought it was a fine system. Not sure why people bad mouth it. The ABS pump quit while still under warranty but so did the one on a Firebird we had a few years ago. Just happens.
Don this is a pretty good job, lot of cold nights will pass as this is completed. Good Luck! If they want it then do it. I would try to buy a salvage bike, park them side by side and have at it.

I tried to spitball this in my head before posting here Don.  But hadn't had a chance to compare parts manuals side by side.  I finally got a chance to do that this evening. 

You're right.  It's a job for sure.  But unless I've missed something so far it's a do-able proposition.  If (and that's a big IF) a guy had all the parts in hand it's probably a two weekend chore though. 

Yank each wheel and change the bearings, axles and sensors would be one part of the job.  Open the fairing and pull the tank and the battery tray.  Swap harnesses and battery trays.  Wouldn't want to do it at home without scoring an ECM, ABS module and TSSM that all came from the same bike.  Run the 2008 brakes lines.  They'd fit along the lines of the similar frame from pre-08 bikes.  Swap the rotor, stator and regulator too.  Change all the parts in the handlebars, in the fairing and the throttle body.  I know there are bits and pieces I'm missing but with donor parts from an 08 it'd all be a pretty direct swap.

This isn't something I'd consider doing on my own.  At least not without having walked through it all on someone else's first (lazy that way).  But if someone else is footing the costs to guinea pig the effort I find it interesting enough to do some homework for him.

[J-Carr]

Have you looked at the cost to do this?  I certainly understand the mentality of sentiment as that's why I'm still on my soon to be 8 year old bike.  The ABS was the thing that got me off my 9 year old bike and onto it when it came out.  So lets agree for the sake of avoiding argument with those who don't understand that its a given that we're going to make an '03 LOOKING bike an ABS bike.

What about buying a doner bike (as you indicated you were thinking) and swapping out the tins and plastics?  Even better if you find one cheap with a blown motor if the '03 has a good heart.  Swapping an engine and tins should be less work than the hassle of all those little nitty gritty tucked in tight parts.  Not that an inner fairing swap is a walk in the park, but it's still only a half day project.  And a good bet many of those parts would have to come off anyway.

If it needs to have the same frame and VIN for them to feel comfortable that it's the same bike then so be it.  I'll throw my vote in with the doner bike with a blown motor or crashed and bent tins.  It would certainly be cheaper and give you the ability to point and go lookit as you find additional items that you realize ought to swap over.

FWIW I do think you've got everything other than nuts, bolts and fastener clips in your list.  But if I was going to try this I'd have PM'd you to ask if you thought I had everything.  I'm at work and don't have my service manual but I don't believe there's a Jiffy stand switch.  Clutch or neutral to start but it will go into gear and allow you to pull out (I swear I've only done it a dozen or so times) with the Jiffy stand down.  If you do decide to tackle it I can make scans of the relevant sections of the '08 service manual or if your doing it over a weekend or three just mail you the thing and you can mail it back when your done.

[Twolanerider]

Have you looked at the cost to do this?  I certainly understand the mentality of sentiment as that's why I'm still on my soon to be 8 year old bike.  The ABS was the thing that got me off my 9 year old bike and onto it when it came out.  So lets agree for the sake of avoiding argument with those who don't understand that its a given that we're going to make an '03 LOOKING bike an ABS bike.

What about buying a doner bike (as you indicated you were thinking) and swapping out the tins and plastics?  Even better if you find one cheap with a blown motor if the '03 has a good heart.  Swapping an engine and tins should be less work than the hassle of all those little nitty gritty tucked in tight parts.  Not that an inner fairing swap is a walk in the park, but it's still only a half day project.  And a good bet many of those parts would have to come off anyway.

If it needs to have the same frame and VIN for them to feel comfortable that it's the same bike then so be it.  I'll throw my vote in with the doner bike with a blown motor or crashed and bent tins.  It would certainly be cheaper and give you the ability to point and go lookit as you find additional items that you realize ought to swap over.

FWIW I do think you've got everything other than nuts, bolts and fastener clips in your list.  But if I was going to try this I'd have PM'd you to ask if you thought I had everything.  I'm at work and don't have my service manual but I don't believe there's a Jiffy stand switch.  Clutch or neutral to start but it will go into gear and allow you to pull out (I swear I've only done it a dozen or so times) with the Jiffy stand down.  If you do decide to tackle it I can make scans of the relevant sections of the '08 service manual or if your doing it over a weekend or three just mail you the thing and you can mail it back when your done.

Cost?  Not entirely.  It's not my concern on this one after all.  The couple that are considering it can afford whatever they choose to do so far as motorcycles or most other things are concerned.

I did a little eBay searching last night though.  All the parts except the harnesses were out there and could be had for not terrible amounts of money.  Best early guess $750 or so would buy everything except the wiring harnesses if one took a while to shop judiciously.  New harnesses are expensive so hopefully this judicious shopping period might score a harness to but they were fewer and farther in between.

Donor bike?  An option.  But only so far as it would be a transplant donor of things to their bike.  For reasons that are personal to them it is imperative that this bike is their bike and always shall be.  It's an emotional component I'd never have for a vehicle.  But they do and that's fine.

Service manual?  That would be great.  If they decide to move ahead with this I'll definitely take advantage.

[J-Carr]

Cost?  Not entirely.  It's not my concern on this one after all.  The couple that are considering it can afford whatever they choose to do so far as motorcycles or most other things are concerned.

I did a little eBay searching last night though.  All the parts except the harnesses were out there and could be had for not terrible amounts of money.  Best early guess $750 or so would buy everything except the wiring harnesses if one took a while to shop judiciously.  New harnesses are expensive so hopefully this judicious shopping period might score a harness to but they were fewer and farther in between.

Donor bike?  An option.  But only so far as it would be a transplant donor of things to their bike.  For reasons that are personal to them it is imperative that this bike is their bike and always shall be.  It's an emotional component I'd never have for a vehicle.  But they do and that's fine.

Service manual?  That would be great.  If they decide to move ahead with this I'll definitely take advantage.

Yeah, I know the whole when you assume thing.  But I did do some assuming.  I never thought you could obtain all the relevant parts at that price.  Obviously that's going to be cheaper than a doner bike...As long as you can figure out where all the pieces-parts go.

If it comes about this winter let me know about a week in advance and I'll mail the service manual out to you.  I'm only doing the radio pull and send to Ironcross this winter and I can do that in my sleep at this point so I won't be using it once the cold weather rolls around.  Say 11/1.  As long as I get it back by spring thaw it will be all good.

If it really does all work out it would be real interesting to me to know the details.  Malinda's got an '07 Dyna that she loves long time.  If I could do the same thing and make it an ABS bike with the newer Dyna stuff... Well the rewards would be endless!

[Twolanerider]

Yeah, I know the whole when you assume thing.  But I did do some assuming.  I never thought you could obtain all the relevant parts at that price.  Obviously that's going to be cheaper than a doner bike...As long as you can figure out where all the pieces-parts go.

Was sitting in a meeting after posting this and had an "oh chit" moment.  Had seen the ABS modules on eBay in the $200 and up range.  ECM and TSSMs for around the same.  Lines were cheap as were bearings and many of the other smaller bits.  Saw a few listing for the TBW parts too that were inexpensive.  But I still wasn't thinking of everything when I spit balled that figure. 

This bike already has handlebars that would work so I wasn't thinking about the cost of handlebars.  This bike also has already had Brembo calipers up front for a long time now and he just added a one to the back a couple weeks ago.  So I wasn't thinking of $250 or so for another set of good used calipers.  I also didn't think of the cost of a set of used gauges.  That $750 estimate could easily double for all the parts and still not include the harnesses.

It's not an inexpensive retrofit, for sure.  Even if all the parts, judiciously acquired got to $1500 or so and a guy was stuck buying some expensive harnesses and had as much as $2500 in the overall task there are circumstances where that still wouldn't be out of bounds.

$2500, after all, is a heluvalot cheaper than buying a new bike.  I'm one, for example, for whom the only thing on the newer bikes I'd want it is ABS.  So I'd rather spend $2500 on either of mine to gain ABS than I ever would give Harley $30k plus for a new bike. 

If he does this over the winter I'll definitely document and picture it all.  It's up to someone else whether it happens or not so I'm just doing the predicate homework now.  But will advise if he says to move forward.

[Twolanerider]

Might have hit a stump.  The exploded view in the parts manual for 2008 touring models I've looked at to research this shows a frame with the same rear master cylinder mount as the prior years bikes had.  In another area, however, it shows a rear master cylinder with the mount method that is the same as the 2009 and newer bikes.  Someone just emailed me a pic and the rear master cylinder mounts like the 09 and newer bikes.

Now I know why the 2008 bikes' frame has a one year only -08 part number.

Different master cylinders suggests at least the potential for a few different things.  None of them would be ideal for the software in the ABS module that is un-tweakable at home.  It's overall too expensive a retrofit to just guinea pig from scratch without knowing that the parts being used were at least intended to be used together.

Now I need to get a look at a 2008 frame without its rear master cylinder installed.  Need to see what's on the frame that the master cylinder attaches to.

[Twolanerider]

Scored some good pictures from other peoples eBay listings.  Very illustrative of the difference and, unfortunately, specifically defines the problem.  At least at the moment it'd be a no-go.

Even though the 2008 frame is the "old frame" the mounting for the rear master cylinder is different.  Image below is an example of the 07 and prior frame with it's mounting tab for the rear master cylinder.  The cylinder to the right highlights how the cylinder attaches to the frame.

[Twolanerider]

Even though 08 is the "old" frame it uses the rear master cylinder attachment type and cylinder from the "new" frame that came out in 2009.  So Harley was planning ahead here and had begun to morph the two together a bit.  Kind of like how the 2005 ECMs got more memory and capability to handle the o2 sensors that didn't actually hit the street until 2006.

Picture below is a 2008 frame and its master cylinder.  No mounting tab at all.  Bolt on method entirely different.