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[FXR2evo99]

From:  JohnS_Rosamond_CA
The black neoprene rocker box gaskets are superior to the cork in my opinion, though truthfully any gasket material should work if it's installed correctly.  If the rocker box is leaking really bad, then either the rocker boxes are warped (when they look right when you put it together but then slide on each other as the bike is run) or you are bearing down on the top rocker bolts too hard and the gasket material is breaking (both the cork and neoprene will break if it's tightened too much).

I have never had any trouble with the neoprene rocker gaskets from Harley, but I have had trouble with the neoprene gaskets from just about everybody else.

And for further information when dealing with umbrella valves they were not used for model year 1989, even if the rocker box had a place for the umbrella valve, one would not use it.  The 1992 and earlier cases breath out of a hose that comes out of the bottom of the case.  Starting with model year 1993, all bikes had the crank case breather that vented out of the cylinder head and into the air filter.  The umbrella valve was supposed to help separate liquid oil from the air stream. John S, Rosamond CA

From:  JohnS_Rosamond_CA
It's always a good idea to replace the umbrella valves when you R and R a rocker box.  It's a poor design that tries to eliminate oil droplets from the air stream.  The "Cure" is a good investment, but I'm not sure that the "plus" is worth the extra penny - though I haven't tried the "plus" version.  On the rocker gasket giving up the ghost, it could be a warped rocker tier.  I had a rear (centre) rocker that warped and within about 150 miles it would shift over to the left and blow oil all over.  Eventually the only permanent fix for me was to replace the whole rocker set.  However, the rocker gasket is very soft and if you pinch it or over torque it - the gasket will split.  Using an X-pattern when tightening the rocker will help avoid excessive tight spots. John S,

[FXR2evo99]

Alrighty then....so there you have it......if you choose to want to go through a 20% Discount Harley Davidson Dealer for the above parts then you will need to have the Drag Specialties part# to give to that person, I had the DS# for one of the gaskets above but not all of them.  You can always contact JAMES GASKETS by doing a "GOOGLE" search and give them their part number and ask what the Drag Specialties part number is....that's what I do when I need it....if anyone cares to follow up on the applicable DRAG SPECIALTIES part numbers that I am missing above feel free to e~mail me and I will modify the photo to reflect such number to make it easier for others....

When it comes to the Cometic Head gasket's just remember if you oversize your cylinder jugs then you "MAY" need to oversize your cometic gasket as well....by the way "MLS" as used by Cometic stands for Multi-Layer Steel.

So there you have it....the above would be the actual gaskets I would use on my EVO engine....and actually I am running some of them right now....just not the James Base Gasket as I haven't been that far down.

UPDATE:  AS OF JAN 2011 I AM REBUILDING MY ENGINE AND WILL BE REPLACING THE BASE GASKETS AS WELL AS THE HEAD GASKETS.

An update on the "HYLOMAR" apparently late last year Permatex the maker of "HYLOMAR" quit manufactuering it, you can sometimes find this on EBAY....so that's why I would recommend as an alternative the "Aviation Gasket Cement".....Hylomar is extremely tacky.....you don't put it on like you are doing a bath tub seal between the tile and the tub....you put it on EXTREMELY light....and it works EXTREMELY WELL....A tube of that stuff will last awhile....  JUMP TO THE REPLY BELOW #34 HYLOMAR IS NOW AVAILABLE AGAIN!
Mikey, if you follow what was offered above you will never have a leak on your evo engine...after I did mine I have never had a leak, I know others will say if you have to add a gasket sealant then you got other problems....but Samuel (one of the person's I referenced above was into Aviation, well he was into a lot of things and had a lot of wisdom to offer....if it's good enough for him as well as John S. then it's good enough for me and it HAS PROVEN to be GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME)

This is also a pretty good thread on this topic as well, if you would like click, view, and read:

BASE GASKET WEEPING  <~~~~CLICK, VIEW, & READ

So hopefully this is helpful to you or someone else down the road.....

Regards,

Tim

[FXR2evo99]

REDFXR2~~~
Once you drop the motor you won't need any special wrenches.  I used a conventional dog leg allen on mine.  I also bought the very wrench you mention--before I realized that even with it, I still had to drop the motor.

It's a Kastar product.  Like I said, I bought one, myself but you're still going to need to lower the motor.  As I recall. the Kastar wrench will barely drop into the top of the allen bolt, but even if you loosen it, the bolt is too long to be fully removed without hitting to the bottom of the frame.  As you loosen the bolt, it rises out of the hole.  In fact, after only a couple of turns, you won't be able to get the ratchet out of the bolt because of the reduced space.  Even if you remove the ratchet, the bolt itself will be too long to lift out of the hole.  It's a nice wrench, understand, but bottom line is that even with it, you'll still need to lower the motor (or drill an access hole in the fram as mentioned earlier) to remove the bolt completely from the hole.

That is some excellent input....if I don't write things down it's hard for me to remember everything....and you spit it out like you did it yesterday....that's awesome....But here is a point....I STILL wonder if we were to change those evo screws out to the twin cam screws whether that would help with torquing more bolts....because of the tool I mentioned above from Snap On....I realize it's tight in there but with the extension there would indeed be more room, perhaps MIKEY can be our R&D on this one...lol....when it's time to do the job....as I DON'T PLAN ON Breaking into my rocker boxes for any reason too soon....and it would be nice to know whether that might be a solution...




When I did mine, I discovered that fitting a torque wrench on anything but the two front bolts on the front cylinder was impossible.  So, using those two, I marked the bolt and rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie.  Then I torqued the bolt to spec from hand tight and marked the bolt again.  I then used this measured difference on the rear, inaccessible bolts and nothing stripped and it hasn't leaked since.

I CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW YOU ARE DOING THIS....ok you mark the bolt, I get that...and the rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie....I get this too.... but the rest of it I am not getting....I am not seeing the "picture" of what you are doing....  I am sure it is me but can someone help to explain this...it sounds like RED is on to something here worth truly understanding.....I am sure the rest of you get it....but the train is leaving without me.....
 

Regards,

Tim

[FXR2evo99]

Mikey,

I was just curious if you actually had the "screaming" eagle heads in your possesion, as I believe they are getting harder to find aren't they guys?

It will be fun seeing what you do with your build....

Howie....
I put the xxxxxx to allow me enough room to post what I did above in case I became too detailed....and now I am finished so now I can delete them....LOL

Regards,

Tim

[FXR2evo99]

I talked so much about "HYLOMAR" up above that I thought I should provide a link and price for it as well as a simple description, turns out that of Februrary 2009, the price is $30.00 for a 3 oz tube and this particular product is the same product that one use to acquire at your auto parts store under the permatex brand....

SIMPLY, CLICK, VIEW, & READ:

HYLMAR PDF

MULTIBOND
Hylomar® Universal Blue
 
Hylomar Advanced Formula is a solvent free, low viscosity  version of the standard Universal Blue. It is ideally suited as a gasket dressing and it will enhance the sealing capabilities of all types of gaskets and can assist with gasket alignment during assembly. It is designed to seal closely fitting flanges against most lubricants and automotive fluids. Like all the Hylomar formulations, the sealant is re-sealable, non-setting and non-hardening which provides excellent resistance to vibration and thermal expansion of parts.
 
 
▪ Solvent free, low viscosity version  of Universal Blue.

▪ Same formulation as the Permatex version "Hylomar HPF"

Regards,

Tim
 

[Hoist!]

Hmmm.... I wonder what he's got up his sleeve to fill in these with spaces now?

Hoist!

[RedFXR2]

When I did mine, I discovered that fitting a torque wrench on anything but the two front bolts on the front cylinder was impossible.  So, using those two, I marked the bolt and rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie.  Then I torqued the bolt to spec from hand tight and marked the bolt again.  I then used this measured difference on the rear, inaccessible bolts and nothing stripped and it hasn't leaked since.

I CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW YOU ARE DOING THIS....ok you mark the bolt, I get that...and the rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie....I get this too.... but the rest of it I am not getting....I am not seeing the "picture" of what you are doing....  I am sure it is me but can someone help to explain this...it sounds like RED is on to something here worth truly understanding.....I am sure the rest of you get it....but the train is leaving without me.....
 

Regards,

Tim

It works like this:  Hand tighten the bolt in place through the top rocker box.  Place a Sharpie dot on both the rocker box top and the side of the bolt head--aligned with the dot on the rocker box top.  Now, using the torque wrench, torque the bolt to spec.  The dot on the rocker box stays in place but the dot on the side of the bolt head turns with the bolt.  Once the proper torque is reached, note how far the bolt head turned from the hand-tight spot.  Then do this again at any  other bolt you can reach with a torque wrench.  The bolts should be fairly similar in additional rotation.  This will tell you about how far to turn with a conventional allen wrench, the remaining bolts which you can't reach with a torque wrench.  Mark those bolts and rocker box tops at the hand tighten spot and then turn them approximately the same number of degrees as the ones on which you used a torque wrench.

IMO, this is probably sort of beyond necessary as the torque spec for these bolts isn't very much, the bolts are small, and all we're talking about is noncritical gasket sealing.  Flatness of the top rocker box and new gaskets goes a long way to minimize the importance of exact torque.  But it's what I did when replacing the top rocker boxes due to warpage and installing new gaskets.  At the time, I was really sick of fighting rocker box leaks so I probably went overboard.  At any rate, I've had completely dry rocker boxes since--about three years now. 

[FXR2evo99]

REDFXR2

At any rate, I've had completely dry rocker boxes since--about three years now.  

Thank you for your "further" explaination above.....it helped!

For what it's worth I might add I too have had completely dry rocker boxes since--- definitely three years now....so what we both did seems to have worked successfully....did you actually put hylomar on your "lower" rocker box gaskets when you did yours?

Regards,

Tim

[fxr4mikey]

WOW .......... LOTS and LOTS of information
WONDERFUL

THANKS for taking the time to post all that !!

I have read it, need to read it a few more times and to print some of it out and add it to my notes in my manual

I will post up some comments/reply in a couple of weeks .... what?  a couple of weeks?

Yeah man !

I am leaving early tomorrow morning on a trip up MI and riding all the way around Lake MI and then back home.
I should log about 4K miles.
I'll take pics and post a few of them (over in the pic threads) when I get back somewhere about 8/25
cya yall when I get back

[RedFXR2]

...did you actually put hylomar on your "lower" rocker box gaskets when you did yours?

Nope.  Although if I did it again, from reading your posts, I might try it.  Looking back on the "motor makeover" on my bike  about three years ago, the tech doing the work used Cometic gaskets on the cylinder bases.  I'd be curious to ask him about a light coating of hylomar on them.  Wonder if he uses it or not?  Those things would represent a considerably bigger job so I'd be up for doing anything to make sure they didn't leak.  Mine have been dry ever since but I'd like them to be that way for a loooooong time.

[FXR2evo99]

Well going back to June of 2005 when I arrived home from purchasing my "new" previously owned "museum piece" FXR2, having driven it 350 miles on it's "maiden" voyage, I noticed a drop of oil on my driveway.....and I carefully looked the bike over to find a "oily" mess....I was totally disappointed....but not defeated....the bike had only 5,400 miles on it, the original owner had only put that many miles on the bike in over 6 years and 3 months of ownership....he lived in Gilllette, WY where temperatures are a bit extreme....and didn't have a heated garage....and he had taken like two 1,000 mile trips with the bike and so that meant that the other 3,400 miles came via 6 years and 10 weeks.....heck that's only 50 miles a month on average and most likely I figured about 17 days of 200 mile trips out of a possible 2300 days.....so say I am off by 100 days of riding out of a possible 2,300 days of riding the bike was only out what 120 days which means the bike sat for 95% of it's life.....so I was told to expect the potential of some of this....Sure enough...so I sat about fixing the leaks, it turned out to be the rear cylinder that was doing most of it....and I noticed some weeping right at the lower rocker box gasket area, as everyone knows that has taken theirs apart the factory was using a paper two piece gasket....so it was prone to do this....so I went out purchased the James gaskets....well as it turns out....the Geniune James rubber neoprene blew out of the middle rocker box of the front cylinder....and this time it was worse than before....now I was pretty discouraged.....and anytime you have to repair something once, well ok, but twice and it gets "old" lol.......so this time I did more research and that's why I used precisely what I did above....turns out that HD has it's place for certain applications, James in a couple of spots and of course cometic for the head gasket.....I have only been as low as the lower Rocker box one piece gasket........but if I had to go to the head gasket for the cylinder and the base gasket of the cylinder, I would definitely add "hylomar" to these three major gaskets, ie:  base gasket, head gasket, and of course the lower rocker box "one piece" gasket as well.....

This spring we added some "hylomar" to a buddies Twin cam in his rocker box gasket area as well since he was experiencing some weeping.....

Like you thus far no more problems....

Regards,

Tim

[fxr4mikey]

Alrighty then....so there you have it......

Mikey, if you follow what was offered above you will never have a leak on your evo engine...after I did mine I have never had a leak, I know others will say if you have to add a gasket sealant then you got other problems....but Samuel (one of the person's I referenced above was into Aviation, well he was into a lot of things and had a lot of wisdom to offer....if it's good enough for him as well as John S. then it's good enough for me and it HAS PROVEN to be GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME)

This is also a pretty good thread on this topic as well, if you would like click, view, and read:

http://groups.msn.com/HarleyTechTalk/evo1340.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=1330238&ShowDelete=0&CDir=-2

So hopefully this is helpful to you or someone else down the road.....

Regards,

Tim

Tim !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm back from my trip, and then a second one that I hadn't planned on.

I've been reading tonight trying to catch up

DUDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU, YOU are THE MAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish there were something that I could say that would express my gratidute more than THANKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is TOTALLY AWESOME that you took the time to put all of this information up here.


I will be using the gaskets and the hylomar and the methods that you have shared.

I plan to take the bike apart and do the build in December, so we got a couple of months of riding and messing about before that.

THANK YOU sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo MUCH for all your help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mikey

[rogerutley]

i have same problem..... only front leaking now but maybe i should replace both cylinders.....  what  can i expect to pay my local harley dealer??? thx

[FXR2evo99]

i have same problem..... only front leaking now but maybe i should replace both cylinders.....  what  can i expect to pay my local harley dealer??? thx

rogerutley....

hmmmmm perhaps two hours labor (for both cylinders that is, if only doing one only 1 hour)........a indy dealer use to working on an FXR probably won't remove the tank where as you or I would find it much easier to access since we don't do something like this on a "regular" basis.....and if you aren't removing the tank then that saves another hour for removal and reinstallation.....

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Tim

PS:  Thanks Mikey for the supporting comments.....glad it was of help to yah!!!

[fxr4mikey]

Need Hylomar HPF

BTW,  chit ain't CHEAP        32 bucks for 3 oz      YIKES  !!!

I'm going to place an order tonight, at this site or somewhere .... I need some for my build

Look here: http://www.hylomar-usa.com/_resources/_html/products.html



Hylomar Advanced Formula = Same formulation as the Permatex version "Hylomar HPF"

 Hylomar Advanced Formula is a solvent free, low viscosity  version of the standard Universal Blue. It is ideally suited as a gasket dressing and it will enhance the sealing capabilities of all types of gaskets and can assist with gasket alignment during assembly. It is designed to seal closely fitting flanges against most lubricants and automotive fluids. Like all the Hylomar formulations, the sealant is re-sealable, non-setting and non-hardening which provides excellent resistance to vibration and thermal expansion of parts.
 
   

 
▪ Solvent free, low viscosity version  of Universal Blue.

▪ Same formulation as the Permatex version "Hylomar HPF"



more .......... 

~~



Hylomar UK makes several varieties of the blue goo. With the exception of
Hylomar Advanced Formulation, all the Hylomar grades are more stiff out of
the tube, don't smear onto the surface easily, and tack-up immediately,
giving almost zero working time. They almost feel like a thick, gooie
pressure sensitive adhesive. Smear it down right the first time and like
it, 'cuz it's staying where it is. Those Hylomar grades are not
"difficult" to use, it's just that compared to Hylomar Advanced
Formulation, they're not as easy to use.



In contrast, Advanced Formulation (aka, the OLD Permatex Hylomar HPF)
is unique in that it comes out of the tube in a more fluid state. It flows
onto the joint surface and is easy to spread. Then it stays fluid for a
considerable time giving it a long working life, and making it useful for
tasks like O-ring and coolant hose dressing. In those applications, the
more fluid Hylomar initially acts as a lubricant to aid in installing stiff
rubber coolant hoses and in seating O-rings. Then it tacks-up and provides
an enhanced seal.



All Hylomar Blues seal great (that's not an issue) but the stiffer
varieties are not as easy to apply in comparison to the Advanced Formulation
/ old Permatex Hylomar HPF version.


~~


Anyway, if you have been a Permatex Hylomar HPF fan in the US and you've
been wondering what happened to it... that's what. If you prefer the old
Permatex Hylomar HPF, it's no longer available but you can still get the
equivalent UK Hylomar Advanced Formulation. You'll just have to look
harder to find it.



JAE is presently going through the paperwork to import Hylomar Advanced
Formulation for us. There is a USA Hylomar Distributor, but they're
primarily set up to service industrial accounts and only sell Hylomar in
large, 3.5 oz tubes for $31.50 each. So JAE is working on getting set up
as a US importer for the smaller, more practical and familiar 1.0 or 1.2
oz tubes. Doing so involves both Hylomar and US Customs paperwork and it's
taking a while, but Jeff is working on it. For the moment, JAE has no
Hylomar Advanced Formulation in stock, but stay tuned.



Lube-O-Seal is the afore mentioned USA distributor for Hylomar and you can
order directly from their website. if you want it bad enough to buy the
large 3.5 oz tube at $31.50 each (verses the typical retail 1.2 oz tube).