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[Ghost Rider]

I have stayed away from this thread for the last day or so because I know this is a sensitive topic, and I knew I wouldn't be able to express the pros and cons of this discussion better than others have already done.  But I figured since everyone else is in the pool, why not jump in.

We live in a world full of dangers.  It doesn't matter if your in a car, a truck, a plane, or on a motorcycle, your only one mistake or one mechanical failure away from serious injury or even death.  Many of our brothers and sisters on this site work jobs everyday where they face unimaginable risks in service to the rest of us.  How often do we hear about shooting rampages at business, schools, public buildings, or even shopping malls?  Every deer season hunters get killed no matter how much orange they wear, or how safely they handle their weapons.  Many of us have medical conditions, known and unknown, that could literally end our lives in a heartbeat.

When given a choice, I usually do not wear a helmet.  I can not defend this decision.  I can't tell you that I see better, hear better, or that I am a safer rider without a helmet.  I can only say that I like riding without one.  Of all the ways that I could die, I figure this is just one more.  And if I'm gonna go, I guess I would rather it be based on my decision than someone else's.

I once had a chain smoker tell me that I should wear a helmet when I ride because he didn't want to be responsible for my medical bills.  No hypocrisy there.

I don't think we should be surprised that states have and pass helmet laws.  Are they any different than a seat belt law?  Right or wrong we expect our government to protect us, mostly from ourselves.  We ask them to inspect our food, our water, our air, and in MO our vehicles.  We want them to pass laws that make the roads safer.  Helmets make us safer.

I am sure none of this makes any sense, just random thoughts mostly.  I guess in the end I should wear a helmet, but when I have the choice I chose not to.  Its kinda like the old joke, "My doctor told me if I quit eating ice cream I'd live an extra two years.  Why would I want to live 2 years longer without ice cream?"  I really love ice cream!   

Lets all be safe out there,
Ghost

[hoody]

Always BEST to let those who ride decide! after all it's their head 

[UltraPolecat]

I too have laid in the weeds on this discussion.  I believe in Liberty, and if the Libertarian party wasn't full of wackos (maybe I am one too) I would be there.

The government was intended to help protect us from foreign invaders (they are doing a crappy job at that from the south), and from each other (what do you think of our legal system, eh?).  NOT FROM OURSELVES!

If someone wants to bash their head in with no helmet, its ok with me.  If they want to fry their head with dope, also ok with me.  Good for the gene pool.  Don't come asking to be bailed out, you made your bed so sleep in it.

I never ride without a helmet, never drive without a seat belt BY CHOICE.  The government has no business telling me what do do along those lines.  Use the people wasting their time on that to patrol the borders and stop violent crime.  Chasing hookers and helmetless riders is a pity.

[Bagger]

I too have laid in the weeds on this discussion.  I believe in Liberty, and if the Libertarian party wasn't full of wackos (maybe I am one too) I would be there.

The government was intended to help protect us from foreign invaders (they are doing a crappy job at that from the south), and from each other (what do you think of our legal system, eh?).  NOT FROM OURSELVES!

If someone wants to bash their head in with no helmet, its ok with me.  If they want to fry their head with dope, also ok with me.  Good for the gene pool.  Don't come asking to be bailed out, you made your bed so sleep in it.

I never ride without a helmet, never drive without a seat belt BY CHOICE.  The government has no business telling me what do do along those lines.  Use the people wasting their time on that to patrol the borders and stop violent crime.  Chasing hookers and helmetless riders is a pity.

Some people have all the words and eloquence for which I've longed my entire adult life.  UPC, in my mind, you've summed it up.  I could not agree more.  Thanks Brother.

[RedDevil]

I too have laid in the weeds on this discussion.  I believe in Liberty, and if the Libertarian party wasn't full of wackos (maybe I am one too) I would be there.

The government was intended to help protect us from foreign invaders (they are doing a crappy job at that from the south), and from each other (what do you think of our legal system, eh?).  NOT FROM OURSELVES!

If someone wants to bash their head in with no helmet, its ok with me.  If they want to fry their head with dope, also ok with me.  Good for the gene pool.  Don't come asking to be bailed out, you made your bed so sleep in it.

I never ride without a helmet, never drive without a seat belt BY CHOICE.  The government has no business telling me what do do along those lines.  Use the people wasting their time on that to patrol the borders and stop violent crime.  Chasing hookers and helmetless riders is a pity.

Actually plain and simple, if it's the law, it's the law...if it's not then you have a choice...if it's the law and you decide to violate the law, then that's your choice also, but standby for the harsh realities...like I always told my troops:  "You can to anything you want to do, as long as you're willing to accept the consequences of your actions." 

Cheers ,
Red

[Midnight Rider]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

One of the most influential theories of government in the past two hundred years has been the social contract, on which modern democracy and most forms of socialism are founded. The social contract theory holds that governments are created by the people in order to provide for collective needs (such as safety from crime, poverty, illiteracy) that cannot be properly satisfied using purely individual means. Governments thus exist for the purpose of serving the needs and wishes of the people, and their relationship with the people is clearly stipulated in a "social contract" (a constitution and a set of laws) which both the government and the people must abide by. If a majority is unhappy, it may change the social contract. If a minority is unhappy, it may persuade the majority to change the contract, or it may opt out of it by emigration or secession. This theory is based on the idea that all men live in a state of nature which is not ideal to perfect harmony. It is also an agreement among the members of an organized society or between the governed and the government defining and limiting the rights and duties of each.

If I'm not mistaken, this pretty much sums up the premise on which our nation was founded, and the purpose of OUR government.  The Devil's in the details, which are in a constant state of change.

[Twolanerider]

but standby for the harsh realities...

And those "harsh realities" or consequences are where you learn just how seriously any particular state actually takes its position on the matter.  In my own home state of Missouri, for example, it is common knowledge to everyone that it's a helmet state.  Short of actually getting the ticket, however, nowhere is it stated that they don't take it very seriously (or at least they didn't as of a couple years ago).

The last time I checked (a couple years ago) the penalty for riding without a helmet was the grand sum of 25 dollars and no points on your license.  Wouldn't surprise me if that were the lightest traffic penalty on the books here. 

Some states have far more significant fines.  I don't believe it's the case anymore but at least initially a couple of state enacted their helmet laws as what are often called "secondary."  In other words you had to be pulled over for something else before you could even be ticketed for the lack of helmet (a lot of seat belt laws were that way too).  The helmet thing being so obvious those faded pretty quickly.  But it is the case that not all helmet laws are created equal.  And some have been weak to the point of near non-effect.

[HogBreath]

Wear a Condom, if not suffer the consequences. Wonder if the State of Kentucky will require that soon?

[RedDevil]

And those "harsh realities" or consequences are where you learn just how seriously any particular state actually takes its position on the matter.  In my own home state of Missouri, for example, it is common knowledge to everyone that it's a helmet state.  Short of actually getting the ticket, however, nowhere is it stated that they don't take it very seriously (or at least they didn't as of a couple years ago).

The last time I checked (a couple years ago) the penalty for riding without a helmet was the grand sum of 25 dollars and no points on your license.  Wouldn't surprise me if that were the lightest traffic penalty on the books here. 

Some states have far more significant fines.  I don't believe it's the case anymore but at least initially a couple of state enacted their helmet laws as what are often called "secondary."  In other words you had to be pulled over for something else before you could even be ticketed for the lack of helmet (a lot of seat belt laws were that way too).  The helmet thing being so obvious those faded pretty quickly.  But it is the case that not all helmet laws are created equal.  And some have been weak to the point of near non-effect.

Twolaner,
That's a very good point.  Each state enforces and creates their laws a little differently.  Look at the state-by-state motorcycle laws chart in the front of your HOG touring guide.  They all do their own thing.  I personally look at those charts, because I choose not to find out how well they do or don't enforece them.  VA is good example...you can/will be stopped for not wearing a helmet, just like you can/will be stopped for not wearing a seatbelt.  They don't do the secondary offense on the seatbelt here anymore, it is a pulloverable (new word) offense.  Motorcylists have a bad rep in a lot of people's eyes...I try not to do anything to further that perception.
Cheers ,
Red

[Ghost Rider]

The government was intended to help protect us from foreign invaders (they are doing a crappy job at that from the south), and from each other (what do you think of our legal system, eh?).  NOT FROM OURSELVES!

I never ride without a helmet, never drive without a seat belt BY CHOICE.  The government has no business telling me what do do along those lines. 

UPC,

As Bagger noted, you are simply more eloquent than I.  The "from ourselves comment" was sarcasim.

You are also correct in that the government has no business invading our personal liberties, yet they do everyday.  And we "the people" are responsible for that.  If I feel that my government should not be telling me to wear a helmet, or wear a seat belt, then I need to make sure that I am working towards sending like minded representatives to the state house and Washington.  It is government "for the people, by the people."

[Cerdo]

  I too have stayed away from this one too; however, since everyone is so passionate about their viewpoint I decided to post my two cents worth. I agree that it should be choice, not a law. I too agree that mandatory rider education is a good thing also.  I never ride without a helmet, too many close calls and too many cagers turning in front of me (one I T-boned) have proven that a helmet is worth its weight in gold.  One topic no one has touched on is what happens to your loved ones if you are severally brain damaged or killed. If for any other reason, I wear my helmet all of the time even if it gives me a 1% better chance of sparing my family the grief of caring for me or burying me before my time. Most of us have family and friends that depend on us, wearing a helmet for the ones you love is a small price to pay and is the cool thing to do.

[hard10]

And those "harsh realities" or consequences are where you learn just how seriously any particular state actually takes its position on the matter.  In my own home state of Missouri, for example, it is common knowledge to everyone that it's a helmet state.  Short of actually getting the ticket, however, nowhere is it stated that they don't take it very seriously (or at least they didn't as of a couple years ago).

The last time I checked (a couple years ago) the penalty for riding without a helmet was the grand sum of 25 dollars and no points on your license.  Wouldn't surprise me if that were the lightest traffic penalty on the books here. 

Some states have far more significant fines.  I don't believe it's the case anymore but at least initially a couple of state enacted their helmet laws as what are often called "secondary."  In other words you had to be pulled over for something else before you could even be ticketed for the lack of helmet (a lot of seat belt laws were that way too).  The helmet thing being so obvious those faded pretty quickly.  But it is the case that not all helmet laws are created equal.  And some have been weak to the point of near non-effect.

2ln, I think it was Ronald Regan that said we can vote with our feet. If you don't like the laws in one state you can move to another. This is one of the things that makes the United States great!

[RedFXR2]

One topic no one has touched on is what happens to your loved ones if you are severally brain damaged or killed. If for any other reason, I wear my helmet all of the time even if it gives me a 1% better chance of sparing my family the grief of caring for me or burying me before my time. Most of us have family and friends that depend on us, wearing a helmet for the ones you love is a small price to pay and is the cool thing to do.

Another good point that I think about, as well.  I'm not done ruining my children's youth just yet.  Just ask them.

[Twolanerider]

2ln, I think it was Ronald Regan that said we can vote with our feet. If you don't like the laws in one state you can move to another. This is one of the things that makes the United States great!

AJ, James Madison had it right in Federalist 10 when he suggested that most political tensions were finally resolved by the meeting and thrashing of different groups of interest.  The more interested (and larger and organized) one side got the more likely it might be to prevail. 

Within our community of bikers and riders everyone seems to be so very interested in the helmet debate.  It's almost, anymore, as if you can't claim your leathers if you don't have a helmet opinion.  As strong as those oh so fervent opinions might be though I personally don't know one soul who has actually picked up and moved family, hearth, home, job and life to move from one state to another over their helmet law.

It may seem asinine to say or think this but there are certain governmental policies or practices that I do deem important enough to have an effect on where I'd choose to live.  Helmet law discussions are recreational and intellectual exercises anymore though.  We hash this discussion out over and over again because we enjoy it; not because we expect it to really effect anything.  Practically speaking none of us are really moving because of them.

[bisounours]

Helmet-full face!    Three years ago I had a 2001 HD Road King. I was going 60mph and a suv going in the opposite direction turned in front of me, there was nothing I could do in time except hold while I hit it after I hit the suv the bike went on its side with me on it,  The roll bar bent over  against my leg.  My helmet was scrapping against the asphalt, 147ft later the bike stopped. I crawed out from underneath the bike and walked too the side of the road, I looked at my leg and saw bones.  When they took off my helmet you could barely see thru the shield it was so badly scratched. The top of my head had a little scratch but no head injuries.   The harley was totaled.  It took 31/2 months to recover. While I recovered I ordered a 2004 o/b FLHTCSE. I have 23k on it now.  I believe if I would not had that helmet on I wouldnt have much of a face left.   I am a firm believer of wearing a full face helmet.

Hello jackhhd,

I send you the  from FRANCE.

It'll nice for the other members if you present you in the thread "New Member Introduction"
with a pic of your bike.

Best regards
  Jacques