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[Twolanerider]

By RPM redline, speed limitation, and acceleration parameters programmed in to the bike's control electronics the company already defines acceptable riding "style."

[ultrarider123]

By RPM redline, speed limitation, and acceleration parameters programmed in to the bike's control electronics the company already defines acceptable riding "style."

Good answer 

[grc]

Ultimately, when they don't know what to do they always fall back on the time worn response and blame it on the customer.  And if you think about it, they are right.  If the customer just left it in the garage and looked at it as art, instead of thinking he could also take it out and ride it, all these problems would just disappear.  No more sumping, no more moisture in the electrical stuff (unless the garage has a roof leak), no more lifter failures, no more wobbles, etc. 

Jerry

[Heatwave]

There is hope! I got my 2017 CVO Limted back late this afternoon after having the Stage IV kit installed. 

The installation had HD engineering involved to ensure everything was done by their specifications. Cylinders washed, oil pump pressure relief valve checked before installation, latest oil pump installed following the prescribed torque procedure.

Engine went through the required heat cycles and then they did a 20 mile ride and checked all fluid levels. All were perfect. Then another 30 mile ride by the tech. All fluids were still perfect plus they pulled the crank position sensor and just an ounce or so dribbled out.

I picked up the bike and did a 100 mile ride before dark. 70 degree temp outside. The bike feels terrific. After 2 prior engines that sumped, I’m familiar with what to look for and how to induce sumping.  Obviously I was gentle and stayed under 3500 rpms but did a long 50 mile run on an interstate at 3000-3200rpms (75-80mph). No feeling of any sumping. Just clean power whenever I wanted it.

I did another 50miles on backroads with lots of shifting. No sense of sumping.

The additional good news was that the engine ran exceptionally cooler than either my recent stock 114 or my previous Stage IV 117s. I reached this conclusion based on the fact that my coolant fans never came on even after an hr run on the highway at 80mph or on the backroads with lots of shifting after I came to a stop. Granted it was only 70 degrees outside however my other engines would have the coolant fans running after 10-15mins of the same conditions.

So its definitely early with only 150 miles on this Stage IV build but there’s very good reason to be optimistic. A lousy weather weekend ahead so I can’t get any more miles  til next week, but I feel this third build could be the charm.

[rayson56]

Fingers crossed and best of luck to you. Being the pessimist that I am, are you sure that they reconnected your fans for you and that they are working?

[Heatwave]

Fingers crossed and best of luck to you. Being the pessimist that I am, are you sure that they reconnected your fans for you and that they are working?

Yes they did come on briefly while idling on the kickstand after one of the runs. I was inspecting the engine for any cyl base leaks (none) and had the engine idling when the fans finally came on, so I know they are working. I also held my hand over the outlet when running on the highway (which I occassionaly did with the other builds) and to my hands touch, the radiator temps were the coolest I’ve felt since I owned the bike.

[Alan Perlin]

There is hope! I got my 2017 CVO Limted back late this afternoon after having the Stage IV kit installed. 

The installation had HD engineering involved to ensure everything was done by their specifications. Cylinders washed, oil pump pressure relief valve checked before installation, latest oil pump installed following the prescribed torque procedure.

Engine went through the required heat cycles and then they did a 20 mile ride and checked all fluid levels. All were perfect. Then another 30 mile ride by the tech. All fluids were still perfect plus they pulled the crank position sensor and just an ounce or so dribbled out.

I picked up the bike and did a 100 mile ride before dark. 70 degree temp outside. The bike feels terrific. After 2 prior engines that sumped, I’m familiar with what to look for and how to induce sumping.  Obviously I was gentle and stayed under 3500 rpms but did a long 50 mile run on an interstate at 3000-3200rpms (75-80mph). No feeling of any sumping. Just clean power whenever I wanted it.

I did another 50miles on backroads with lots of shifting. No sense of sumping.

The additional good news was that the engine ran exceptionally cooler than either my recent stock 114 or my previous Stage IV 117s. I reached this conclusion based on the fact that my coolant fans never came on even after an hr run on the highway at 80mph or on the backroads with lots of shifting after I came to a stop. Granted it was only 70 degrees outside however my other engines would have the coolant fans running after 10-15mins of the same conditions.

So its definitely early with only 150 miles on this Stage IV build but there’s very good reason to be optimistic. A lousy weather weekend ahead so I can’t get any more miles  til next week, but I feel this third build could be the charm.

On both my new motors after first sump bike ran perfect until right at 1000 miles. Last Sat in So Cal was crazy hot (100 degrees) and I thought oh boy, it may sump now. Ran it hard and it ran great with no issues. Next day not hot, was running great for about 100 miles (not running it hard) and I stopped for a few minutes and when I got back on it sumped. Same as other times, felt like it was running in mud and started throwing off crazy heat right side. Went straight to the dealer and by the time I got there you could smell the metal burning.
3 motors in 2 months, just ordered the BMW bagger today...

[Heatwave]

On both my new motors after first sump bike ran perfect until right at 1000 miles. Last Sat in So Cal was crazy hot (100 degrees) and I thought oh boy, it may sump now. Ran it hard and it ran great with no issues. Next day not hot, was running great for about 100 miles (not running it hard) and I stopped for a few minutes and when I got back on it sumped. Same as other times, felt like it was running in mud and started throwing off crazy heat right side. Went straight to the dealer and by the time I got there you could smell the metal burning.
3 motors in 2 months, just ordered the BMW bagger today...

Yeah, I followed your “saga”. Sorry to hear the path you’ve been on. Can’t blame your decision-making at all. I’m hopeful my situation is different because the engine has not only the latest oil pump with HD supervision on the install, but they also built the Stage IV with “one-off” components that came straight from Engineering.

Will it prevent sumping, I won’t trust it till I’ve got 500+ miles. I’m confident once I get through break-in that I can induce sumping if the engine is susceptible. Time and miles will tell but these first 150 miles leave me optimistic for the time being.

[Alan Perlin]

Yeah, I followed your “saga”. Sorry to hear the path you’ve been on. Can’t blame your decision-making at all. I’m hopeful my situation is different because the engine has not only the latest oil pump with HD supervision on the install, but they also built the Stage IV with “one-off” components that came straight from Engineering.

Will it prevent sumping, I won’t trust it till I’ve got 500+ miles. I’m confident once I get through break-in that I can induce sumping if the engine is susceptible. Time and miles will tell but these first 150 miles leave me optimistic for the time being.

Really don't mean to be a downer and actually try not to be a complainer on the forum. Obviously there are thousands of M8's out there that are fine and people are loving. Just think there is something about my bike that just cant be fixed. Last motor (just a couple of weeks ago) they actually sent the top end to a machine shop to dial in the tolerances of the top end though I have no idea what failed this time as Harley has told the dealer to not touch the bike since we are in our "situation". I think if you can get a couple thousand miles on yours with no issues you will be in the clear. Both of the new motors I had sumped right around 1000 miles

[bigcraig]

Did you find out what the "one-off" parts are?

I am very curious.

[Heatwave]

I was a little nervous about sharing because i doubt they can do it for most people and I didn’t want to frustrate those already having a tough experience. But given what I’ve been through I think everyone should demand the same.

In my case when the actual day came to do the install last week, they called me and wanted to postpone the build for a week. I was like WTH, I’ve had the appt for a month. What could be the issue now?

As I’ve suspected all along the issue is not a design issue but a manufacturing issue. Apparently the cylinder to rings to pistons clearances have been an issue in manufacturing. Combined with an oil pump not designed for an engine with those clearance issues has resulted in sumping.

So HD has tried to fix a cylinder manufacturing issue with a redesigned oil pump. Maybe they thought the oil pump design was defective or maybe they’ve known all along they had a serious cylinder/piston manufacturing issue they needed to solve and the oil pump change was the least expensive solution ... except it wasn’t.

In my case Engineering pulled my cylinders, pistons and rings and had them “matched” and trued to specifications in the Engineering lab and then overnighted to my dealer. They may also have modified the taper. I have no real details other than these 117 cylinders/pistons rings are “custom one offs” from engineering.

In combination with the latest oil pump, has it resolved engine oil sumping in M8 engines? Hard to say. I need more time and miles after breakin to really challenge this Stage IV 117 engine as it was advertised to perform. But early signs are encouraging. Particularly what appears to be cooler operating temps. But I’ve had hopes dashed before so I don’t want to get too far ahead of myself.

Can they do “custom one offs” for everyone. Doubtful but then again they shouldn’t need to for the money people pay for these bikes. Lets hope this is a solution they can transfer to manufacturing and get the M8 back on track.

[bigcraig]

Thanks, Heatwave.

I had a pretty good guess that was the case, in regards to "proper" machining of the cylinders.

I suppose that is why we haven't seen much of the sumping issue with big bore M8's that use aftermarket pistons and properly bored and seasoned cylinders, as well as the latest and greatest oil pump.

I am still going to hold off on my 124" build until the aftermarket, other than Fueling, brings a oil pump and cam plate to market. THEN ALL BETS ARE OFF!

Again, thanks for the update, and further updates to come.

[grc]

Hope this works for you and you finally have a reliable engine you can trust.

I'm still not convinced that poor piston ring to cylinder sealing would cause the oil pump scavenging system to fail, but it is at least nice to see they are trying something other than just oil pumps and blaming dealer techs for not torquing them correctly.  Harley has had poor cylinder sealing issues off and on for ages, including the Twin Cams in 2007/2008, and I don't remember a rash of sumping issues back then.  Lots of other issues, but not what we are now calling sumping.  I guess time will tell.  I just feel bad for all the folks caught up in this fiasco, and hope the MoCo steps up and does the right thing for everyone, and soon.

Jerry

[happyman]

There is hope! I got my 2017 CVO Limted back late this afternoon after having the Stage IV kit installed. 

The installation had HD engineering involved to ensure everything was done by their specifications. Cylinders washed, oil pump pressure relief valve checked before installation, latest oil pump installed following the prescribed torque procedure.

Engine went through the required heat cycles and then they did a 20 mile ride and checked all fluid levels. All were perfect. Then another 30 mile ride by the tech. All fluids were still perfect plus they pulled the crank position sensor and just an ounce or so dribbled out.
your good luck can change in a split second . happy for you if indeed it never sumps again.  I have seen this several times and then all of  a sudden the  sumping begins . 


I picked up the bike and did a 100 mile ride before dark. 70 degree temp outside. The bike feels terrific. After 2 prior engines that sumped, I’m familiar with what to look for and how to induce sumping.  Obviously I was gentle and stayed under 3500 rpms but did a long 50 mile run on an interstate at 3000-3200rpms (75-80mph). No feeling of any sumping. Just clean power whenever I wanted it.

I did another 50miles on backroads with lots of shifting. No sense of sumping.

The additional good news was that the engine ran exceptionally cooler than either my recent stock 114 or my previous Stage IV 117s. I reached this conclusion based on the fact that my coolant fans never came on even after an hr run on the highway at 80mph or on the backroads with lots of shifting after I came to a stop. Granted it was only 70 degrees outside however my other engines would have the coolant fans running after 10-15mins of the same conditions.

So its definitely early with only 150 miles on this Stage IV build but there’s very good reason to be optimistic. A lousy weather weekend ahead so I can’t get any more miles  til next week, but I feel this third build could be the charm.

[Twolanerider]

I'm still not convinced that poor piston ring to cylinder sealing would cause the oil pump scavenging system to fail,
Jerry

You're more tolerant or optimistic than I Jerry.  It's difficult to accept ring seal issues that would cause the issues described.  Especially when so many things suggest against.  Ring seal issues wouldn't be such a sudden onset and irregular as the sumping issues seem to present.  Ring seal issues would (almost) certainly present with other problems as well.  Seal issues would have to be so significant that to...


Well... I'll only say I'm afraid Harley is looking for something far simpler (and cheaper) than what is the real problem in the hopes they can find a minimally additive factor to their problem and remove that in hopes that an otherwise compromise system will be given just enough of a band aid they can sneak a lot of bikes beyond warranty without buying complete engines (or motorcycles).