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[ultrarider123]

Here's how I come to the conclusion that I can make any M8 sump. Its a set of riding situations and temps that has taken awhile to figure out. I never did it it on the stock 114 form and wished I had. I have a 25 mile loop I enjoy riding. Its a combination of nice twisties with steep inclines, sweeping turns around a reservoir, then 10 miles on an interstate and than more twisty back roads back to my house. Last night I road that loop 2 times ...easy.....and the bike felt terrific. No signs of power loss or overheating. I regularly checked the radiator fans to see if they were running and the engine was cool, no issues and I was smiling as the ride felt great. At the last minute I figured I would do a third loop.

5 miles into the 3rd loop, the engine felt just "a hair off" the performance of the 1st 50 miles but I figured it was my imagination and my sensitivity to the the previous sumped engines. So I kept riding, nothing radical, just enjoying the curves. On the Interstate, I was doing 80-85mph with the traffic flow before the exit to the final 15 miles of backroads. The throttle response slowly got worse and worse. At every stop sign the fans were blowing where they weren't on the first 50 miles. Within 5-10 miles of my house the throttle response went to nothing. I could roll the throttle and it would barely accelerate. Engine was screaming hot.

I pulled it into my garage on level ground and let it idle for 2 mins. I shut it down and pulled the dipstick. Very bad burnt oil smell which you could smell throughout the garage. Where it had been perfectly full when I left, it was now 5-6 rows of dots low on oil, which is more than a quart low in less than 250miles. Even crazier, I let it sit overnight to cool down. Pulled the dipstick this morning and the oil was in the same place I left it last night but you could still smell the burnt oil on the dipstick. I turned the engine on and let it idle for 2 mins per SB1450 on the kickstand. I turned the engine off. The oil FELL from 5-6 rows of dots low on the dipstick to BELOW the add mark. Serious problem if your oil can DROP to below "add" in just 2 mins of idling on the kickstand. Obviously the latest model oil pump was not returning the oil from the crankcase to the pan at the same rate it was being pumped to the top end.

My view is its really just a matter of time. A stock bike might take 4-5 of those loops, maybe more but eventually sumping would show its ugly head. That's just my opinion based on my experience with 3 sumping engines. Its all a matter of time, load & temps.

Well, it's obvious....it's not the bike, it's your riding style....

All of this with yours and SDCVO ALANCVO SDCVO (the artist formerly known as SDCVO...I am so confused) and others has proven to me there is a major issue other than an oil pump with the new M8.  We can bitch, discuss, argue, ponder and otherwise wax eloquently on what's doing it but the MoCo has a MAJOR fault here and pushing it down the road after the warranty goes out, while the norm for them, isn't what is needed here.  IF ma harley does introduce a new oiling set-up on the 2019 M8 bikes, they should figure out and provide a retrofit for all 2017/2018 M8's, free.  While releasing something that isn't ready to release ain't good, fixing it and owning the issue and fix could be a feather in their cap which may help to sell motorcycles. 

But hey, that would be if we lived in OZ or Fantasyland.  We live in reality so....please disregard the previous blurb....

[CVOStreetglide]

I think Steve Cole from Fullsac identified the causeswith this post.

STEVE COLE FULLSAC—HARLEY M8 SUMPING ISSUE POSSIBLE CAUSE


One of the most important things about the Factory Twin Cam pickup is it's position. If you were to fill the sump area with oil, it will fully cover the pickup hole with oil, with additional oil over the top of the hole. This is not the case with the M8 arrangement. The sump area is about 40% smaller on the M8 and the pickup hole location is wrong. Then to add insult to injury the plug used to block the hole for the pickup feed hole is wrong and once installed the plug itself is blocking a portion of the pickup hole.

Now with the smaller capacity to hold oil in the sump on the M8, it backs up and the flywheels are running through the oil all the time, just what you do not want in an engine! With there newest service bulletin instead of allow 3 oz of oil to come out and it passes the test for sumping they moved it up to 6 oz! This just means the crankshaft is running deeper into the oil! This is supposed to be a dry sump engine, which means NO oil for the crankshaft to run through.

So we have a crankshaft running through the oil which causes foaming
A reduced sump capacity
A mis-located oil pickup hole
A plug that blocks a portion of the pickup hole when installed
An air trap in the sump area feeding air into the suction pump
Piston oilers that leak additional oil into the engine
Cylinders that are so far out of round leaking (MoCo allows 20% leak down as good)

Then ask yourself do you really wonder why it might be sumping?

[09nessrg]

Do we have anybody with a 117, either stage 4 upgrade dealer installed or direct from the factory with many miles of no problems?
Would like to see the average of miles that pr obs arise.

[chinashop bull]

5 miles into the 3rd loop, the engine felt just "a hair off" the performance of the 1st 50 miles but I figured it was my imagination and my sensitivity to the the previous sumped engines. So I kept riding, nothing radical, just enjoying the curves. On the Interstate, I was doing 80-85mph with the traffic flow before the exit to the final 15 miles of backroads. The throttle response slowly got worse and worse. At every stop sign the fans were blowing where they weren't on the first 50 miles. Within 5-10 miles of my house the throttle response went to nothing. I could roll the throttle and it would barely accelerate. Engine was screaming hot.

I don't think any part of your ride other than running at 80-85 on the interstate have anything to do with your sumping issue.  Since you said you were near the end of your Interstate stage, I'm guessing sumping occurred after only 8-9miles on the Interstate.

Why on earth would you continue to ride once you notice you are losing power?  I can only assume you wanted to make a point with MOCO.  I probably would too.

[Heatwave]

I don't think any part of your ride other than running at 80-85 on the interstate have anything to do with your sumping issue.  Since you said you were near the end of your Interstate stage, I'm guessing sumping occurred after only 8-9miles on the Interstate.

Why on earth would you continue to ride once you notice you are losing power?  I can only assume you wanted to make a point with MOCO.  I probably would too.

Absolutely not. There was no sensation of power loss on the highway. Have you any familiarity with sumping? In this case, the loss of throttle response did not occur until I was several miles OFF the highway on backroads heading towards home.

 As I stated i was on backroads and it would have been dangerous to stop the bike with no where to pull off. I was a few miles from home when the throttle lag reached its worst and I nursed the bike back to my home. My safety would always take precedence over the mechanical welfare of the bike. In this case, both being safe and taking care of the bike was best achieved by nursing the bike a few miles back to my home.

[SDCVO]

Sad to report. This 3rd engine upgraded to Stage IV last week, sumped pretty badly last night after a 75 mile run. Outside temps were 77 degrees. Looks like the cylinders/pistons/rings perfectly matched and specced by HD Engineering were not the solution, even with the latest oil pump ....*****180 casting. I've been a naysayer for awhile that the sumping issue is a design issue (vs a manufacturing issue), but I'm now convinced there is a serious design issue with the oiling system for the M8. I'm also convinced now that I can take any M8 and make it sump. Just plain sad. No idea where to go from here with this bike. The Dealer is coming to pick it up but won't be able to get the dealer rep onsite until early next week. Looks like another lost summer of riding this bike ahead of me. Time to put more miles on my other bike which is a joy to ride and far more dependable.

Really sorry to hear about this!

[FLSTFI Dave]

I don't think any part of your ride other than running at 80-85 on the interstate have anything to do with your sumping issue.  Since you said you were near the end of your Interstate stage, I'm guessing sumping occurred after only 8-9miles on the Interstate.

Why on earth would you continue to ride once you notice you are losing power?  I can only assume you wanted to make a point with MOCO.  I probably would too.

I'm not sure its the interstate that caused the sumping.  What is your Opinion Heatwave?

I say this as I rode 1025 miles in 16 hours on my 117 M8, all interstate but 5 miles.  Zero issues, the next day I rode 520 or so in 8 hours, all interstate.  Cruise at 80 both days.  My thought is once you get it hot, and start running the curves hard with hills to add additional load is what was the cause.  Oil is sloshing all round doing the curves.

I do not know.  I keep hearing stock will sump.  I have 9K on mine, and its rode hard, but not abused.  Stock except head pipe, mufflers and tune.

[Heatwave]

I'm not sure its the interstate that caused the sumping.  What is your Opinion Heatwave?

I say this as I rode 1025 miles in 16 hours on my 117 M8, all interstate but 5 miles.  Zero issues, the next day I rode 520 or so in 8 hours, all interstate.  Cruise at 80 both days.  My thought is once you get it hot, and start running the curves hard with hills to add additional load is what was the cause.  Oil is sloshing all round doing the curves.

I do not know.  I keep hearing stock will sump.  I have 9K on mine, and its rode hard, but not abused.  Stock except head pipe, mufflers and tune.

I honestly now have no clue. I did not sense a power loss on the highway but several miles later on the backroads a subtle loss of throttle response began which progressively got worse. I assume the oil was building in the crankcase.

Could some event have started on the highway like foaming or some venting issue? Then that foaming or lack of venting caused the pump to cavitate or somehow lose its prime? Hell if I know anymore. But clearly the latest design oil pump and certified cylinders/pistons did not prevent sumping on my bike.

[FLSTFI Dave]

I honestly now have no clue. I did not sense a power loss on the highway but several miles later on the backroads a subtle loss of throttle response began which progressively got worse. I assume the oil was building in the crankcase.

Could some event have started on the highway like foaming or some venting issue? Then that foaming or lack of venting caused the pump to cavitate or somehow lose its prime? Hell if I know anymore. But clearly the latest design oil pump and certified cylinders/pistons did not prevent sumping on my bike.

Okay.  Thanks for the answer.  Sucks knowing Harley will not fix the issue.  Especially for guys like you and Alan, multiple times and Factory techs involved.

[jjkrueg]

I should probably quit reading this stuff because it’s worrisome. This year’s CVO Road Glide was the first one that made me say, “I have to have that” so I bought it. Mine is still stock other than Fullsac cores. Now I’m having second thoughts but I guess it’s too late, lol. My original plan was to ride it for 2 years until warrant up then do a big bore line I did on my TC, now not so sure but I guess time will tell more on these motors.

On another note, if interstate heat & high RPM’s are they culprit imagine what I-90 across SD could look like this August. Speed limit is already 80 so most guys run 85. Plus typically hot & windy sounds like a potent mix. I’m making the trek, hope I’m wrong!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[happyman]

I'm not sure its the interstate that caused the sumping.  What is your Opinion Heatwave?

I say this as I rode 1025 miles in 16 hours on my 117 M8, all interstate but 5 miles.  Zero issues, the next day I rode 520 or so in 8 hours, all interstate.  Cruise at 80 both days.  My thought is once you get it hot, and start running the curves hard with hills to add additional load is what was the cause.  Oil is sloshing all round doing the curves.

I do not know.  I keep hearing stock will sump.  I have 9K on mine, and its rode hard, but not abused.  Stock except head pipe, mufflers and tune.

just go  out and run two lane roads and run in sixth gear and start passing cars  rolling on the throttle in sixth and slowing down for other slow traffic that is slow. keep it up  for a few minutes and if you get a place  where you feel safe run the bike up to 90 or so a few times passing a couple cars .  won't be long you will discover what sumping is,  often times . not all bikes are equal  and no you do not have to be the so called rider that is the problem.  that is the biggest lie some people spew cause they live I denial and have no clue of facts or will not admit the facts. or get paid to try to deceive.
 

[happyman]

Here's how I come to the conclusion that I can make any M8 sump. Its a set of riding situations and temps that has taken awhile to figure out. I never did it exactly on the stock 114 form and wished I had. I have a 25 mile loop I enjoy riding. Its a combination of nice twisties with steep inclines, sweeping turns around a reservoir, then 10 miles on an interstate and than more twisty back roads back to my house. Last night I road that loop 2 times ...easy.....and the bike felt terrific. No signs of power loss or overheating. I regularly checked the radiator fans to see if they were running and the engine was cool, no issues and I was smiling as the ride felt great. At the last minute I figured I would do a third loop.

5 miles into the 3rd loop, the engine felt just "a hair off" the performance of the 1st 50 miles but I figured it was my imagination and my sensitivity to the the previous sumped engines. So I kept riding, nothing radical, just enjoying the curves. On the Interstate, I was doing 80-85mph with the traffic flow before the exit to the final 15 miles of backroads. The throttle response slowly got worse and worse. At every stop sign the fans were blowing where they weren't on the first 50 miles. Within 5-10 miles of my house the throttle response went to nothing. I could roll the throttle and it would barely accelerate. Engine was screaming hot.

I pulled it into my garage on level ground and let it idle for 2 mins. I shut it down and pulled the dipstick. Very bad burnt oil smell which you could smell throughout the garage. Where it had been perfectly full when I left, it was now 5-6 rows of dots low on oil, which is more than a quart low in less than 250miles. Even crazier, I let it sit overnight to cool down. Pulled the dipstick this morning and the oil was in the same place I left it last night but you could still smell the burnt oil on the dipstick. I turned the engine on and let it idle for 2 mins per SB1450 on the kickstand. I turned the engine off. The oil FELL from 5-6 rows of dots low on the dipstick to BELOW the add mark. Serious problem if your oil can DROP to below "add" in just 2 mins of idling on the kickstand. Obviously the latest model oil pump was not returning the oil from the crankcase to the pan at the same rate it was being pumped to the top end.

My view is its really just a matter of time. A stock bike might take 4-5 of those loops, maybe more but eventually sumping would show its ugly head. That's just my opinion based on my experience with 3 sumping engines. Its all a matter of time, load & temps.

   
have to say I am waiting for  prolly at a minimum of 6 motors as I type this I am truly fed up to the teeth. my bike has been sitting for longer than your bike. have no clue when    I may get it back it is a 17 ST. Glide  CVO  nothing but a disappointment to put it plain and simple I would never ever even try to take a  nice road trip for a few days you not going to make it ever  no matter what.    you think for aa couple rides yes this is feeling nice and they all of a sudden  your calling a tow.  yup  made it 158 mile since last visit at the dealer,     waiting roadside for bout three hours  in the near ninty   heat.  its not funny  and I am not  a kid.    p'od  is what  you get  when you see this bs .   sad situation  hope they get it right real soon. a lot of dealerships are counting on  a fix and happy customers / cannot blame them for sure. have had the tech  there on occasions and even met with him .   decent guy but that did not cure the problems .  my bike puked a couple cam bolts early on  and there is or was reason for this too because of screw up  right out of the box.    the bike has been in the shop at a minimun of 11 times ,   ya have to wonder   WTF is going on

 

[happyman]

Yeah, I followed your “saga”. Sorry to hear the path you’ve been on. Can’t blame your decision-making at all. I’m hopeful my situation is different because the engine has not only the latest oil pump with HD supervision on the install, but they also built the Stage IV with “one-off” components that came straight from Engineering.

Will it prevent sumping, I won’t trust it till I’ve got 500+ miles. I’m confident once I get through break-in that I can induce sumping if the engine is susceptible. Time and miles will tell but these first 150 miles leave me optimistic for the time being.

my motor was built as a one of  four out there  and it dies in the dirt.   also been waiting for  case for a couple weeks , amazed heatwave gets his back so soon. my bike was in shop the 1st of the month  was sumping to beat hell said it was good. that's the factory tech .  and it was already junk took it home  week  later took it back again and its been down ever since  this is a huge beast of f burden and all you get is more of the same , and no real compensation. lots of canceled plans and frustration and a huge pile of  $$$ involved in the back and forth.  its pitiful  to spend all this  $$ and get  nothing in return   .