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[djkak]

IMHO when given the opportunity to choose between new OEM or properly seasoned and resized, a seasoned, resized cylinder is always the best choice. An iron liner that has been thermally cycled repetitively and resized, will be more stable and maintain its shape better than new, unseasoned iron. When resizing, I’m talking about an oversize bore and piston.

Regarding the straight “perfectly round” bore; Torque Plates sometimes called Deck Plates, have been commonly used when resizing H-D cylinders since 1978. I first became aware of them in 1972 when the Sportster’s bore was increased by 3/16”, yet the headbolt pattern remained unchanged. In ’78 the bore on the new 80 cubic inch machines was increased almost 1/16”, reducing the cross section in some areas of the cylinder by almost .030”. When assembled, these cylinders distorted a substantial amount. The point is that this equipment has been used for a very long time and any shop with a reputation for quality uses it by default.

A capable machinist doing performance work will generally shoot for a .0002” (two tenthousandths) variation in the finished bore. Relative to heat, when finishing a cylinder with a rigid hone, the spigot area will expand more than the rest of the cylinder due to the heat from friction. Adjusting your stroke to compensate for this is necessary so that when the cylinder cools to normal room temp and is measured, the spigot area does not come out smaller than the rest of the bore.

The Torque Plates used with gaskets simulate the “assembled” state of the cylinder. Maintaining a straight and true bore at operating temperature is left to the design and capabilities of the cylinder and cooling system.

As a general rule of thumb, when possible I shoot for roughly .060” when clearancing “general” items like stroker clearances; valve to piston; springs and collars to rocker box, etc.

It is my understanding that the valve collar to rocker box clearance is a “known” condition that may be present on “some” of the early 110’s. I do not have any details regarding affected numbers or production dates. Checking and /or adjusting this clearance is no big deal if the machine is apart for other service. I thought that I heard about it before the end of last year; possibly even before the end of October; later machines should be OK.

djkak

[JDOFLHRIDER]

I HAD A OIL LEAK ON MY BACK HEAD GASKET AND MY DEALER REPLACED IT WITH OVER 8000 MILES ON IT .DEALER SAID EVERYTHING LOOKED GOOD AND GOT ME GOING AND I'M SITTING JUST A LIL UNDER 10,000 READY FOR SPRING.RIDE SAFE JDO

[Unbalanced]

DjKak,

While I agree with your statements, Here in lies the issue.   A capable Machinist and what is good enough for street use vs. Racing / Track.   

The issue isnt the resizing or the sleeving it comes down to the juggs being torqued correctly in the plates to start then heated to the correct temperature then kept at that temperature while they are bored (honed).   I am not talking about getting them close I am talking about getting them bored right.  Most of the guys that can do this choose not to due to the time it takes to do it correctly vs. giving up a little and going with replacement juggs from the a dealer or Axtel or Millenium.  Most guys on the street aren't going to ever miss the difference that is present.

As an example one of the guys I know that will do it right will end up charging more for the labor/honing than the new ones would cost to do it right due to the time it takes them to do this and the time spent monitoring it.  But when done right they are round for sure.  I am not saying there are not others that wouldnt do it correctly or cheaper.   

What I mean is what is good enough for most and cost effective for the avg guy.   Of course someone already having a problem is going to want them done right, but what is within tolerance and what is perfect are two different worlds and generally unless they are going to come back PERFECT, it is just as easy to settle for a brand new set that is within tolerances.

I am not discounting cycled metal or sleeving just the end resolve and the unknown being the machinist doing the boring of the cylinders.

[djkak]

Skippy,

I would not let them hone your cylinders, here is the problem.   Unless they can keep the cylinders under a heat load and torque them down correctly and keep them heated while they hone them they will never be perfectly ROUND.   
I would have them get you NEW Cylinders and not mess with trying to make it work....
-harry

DjKak....it comes down to the juggs being torqued correctly in the plates to start then heated to the correct temperature then kept at that temperature while they are bored (honed).   I am not talking about getting them close I am talking about getting them bored right.

The hot hone process looks like it originated in racing circles in order to provide a competitive edge. The process is centered on using wet torque plates and charging the water jacket with hot coolant. This technique is intended to simulate actual bore distortion occurring under operating conditions. I haven’t turned up anything yet on applying the Hot Hone concept to air cooled HD cylinders; but for this purpose, I’m OK with the assumption that the technique has been developed and refined.

Your response to Skippy as I understand it seems to be saying, “If you can’t obtain or afford this somewhat proprietary high end process, go ahead and grab something off the shelf, like a new set of OE cylinders.” Maybe it’s just me, but that feels a little like “If you can’t get your machine to run 150 mph, go ahead and grab a good pair of walking shoes.”

My push-back is based on a perspective that there is a high performing, affordable option in the middle that would serve Skippy and others in his position very well. The key is to source the cylinder work through a capable and reliable vendor; although that would be true with any process, hot, cold or otherwise.

I also have a little heartburn with the idea that unless you employ the Hot Hone method, you are machining your cylinders incorrectly. IMHO, this is true when the technology returns value that exceeds its cost. This may currently be true in high stakes racing, but it may be some time before this is true for street performance.

When you consider that Skippy’s issue is warranty and his Vendor choice may be outside of his control, his best option may indeed be to take a new set of OE cylinders and pistons. If this is the case, please allow me to execute another Emily Litella signature move by saying, “never mind”. 

djkak

[Hoist!]

The hot hone process looks like it originated in racing circles in order to provide a competitive edge. The process is centered on using wet torque plates and charging the water jacket with hot coolant. This technique is intended to simulate actual bore distortion occurring under operating conditions. I haven’t turned up anything yet on applying the Hot Hone concept to air cooled HD cylinders; but for this purpose, I’m OK with the assumption that the technique has been developed and refined.

Your response to Skippy as I understand it seems to be saying, “If you can’t obtain or afford this somewhat proprietary high end process, go ahead and grab something off the shelf, like a new set of OE cylinders.” Maybe it’s just me, but that feels a little like “If you can’t get your machine to run 150 mph, go ahead and grab a good pair of walking shoes.”

My push-back is based on a perspective that there is a high performing, affordable option in the middle that would serve Skippy and others in his position very well. The key is to source the cylinder work through a capable and reliable vendor; although that would be true with any process, hot, cold or otherwise.

I also have a little heartburn with the idea that unless you employ the Hot Hone method, you are machining your cylinders incorrectly. IMHO, this is true when the technology returns value that exceeds its cost. This may currently be true in high stakes racing, but it may be some time before this is true for street performance.

When you consider that Skippy’s issue is warranty and his Vendor choice may be outside of his control, his best option may indeed be to take a new set of OE cylinders and pistons. If this is the case, please allow me to execute another Emily Litella signature move by saying, “never mind”. 

djkak

Hey dj, I love reading your chit! Do you write for Hallmark? You should! Hoist!

[djkak]

Hey dj, I love reading your chit! Do you write for Hallmark? You should! Hoist!

I appreciate the sentiment, Hoist. It’s funny that you mention greeting cards, because I do have some experience with them; albeit very limited.

I was still in High School and a friend of mine got himself into a little spot with his girlfriend and married her. I rushed up to Walgreens and purchased two cards of the same size and approximate color; one was a wedding card and the other a sympathy card. I cut the cards apart and put the message from the sympathy card together with the front of the wedding card. The front of the wedding card was your classic white lace and wedding bells. When opened the message read, “We wish to express our deepest sympathy at this time of great sorrow.”

djkak

[Unbalanced]

"Your response to Skippy as I understand it seems to be saying, “If you can’t obtain or afford this somewhat proprietary high end process, go ahead and grab something off the shelf, like a new set of OE cylinders.” Maybe it’s just me, but that feels a little like “If you can’t get your machine to run 150 mph, go ahead and grab a good pair of walking shoes.” "

Nope that isnt my position on this at all. 

Has nothing to do with cost as the dealer is paying for it.  It has to do with if its not going to be perfect tell me what the difference of within spec and not perfect are.   There is no difference except he now has juggs that have been cut and in the future may not be able to refresh his motor without more costs out of his pocket due to harley only makes up to .010 over pistons atm for twin cams as shown in the SE Catalog.   Now he has to look else where which he may want to do or go larger but if he doesnt and he is happy with the bike why should this end up costing him more money.   It shouldnt and if it is going to cost harley more to have them cut they will just use new ones anyhow.

Djkak, so tell me if he gets a set off the shelf (JUGGS) that are within spec and have a good cross hatch vs. his that had to be cut to lets call it .010 over and in the future he has some problem albeit whatever it is.  Now if he has a problem in the future he will need to get custom pistons made or then go get new cylinders and the appropriate fitting pistons/rings.   Harley isn't offering anything beyond .010 over in the catalog.   Why limit or pigeon hole yourself on a new factory bike.   I would want it back to perfectly stock so that I have options in the future if not then why the hell not have them make it a 10.5 to 1 bike with the new kit they put out and have them sign off that it has full factory warranty.   

Then again this whole thread could be nothing more than spam if in fact harley in its wisdom decides just to replace the juggs anyhow.

[djkak]

Nope that isnt my position on this at all....
Why limit or pigeon hole yourself on a new factory bike.   I would want it back to perfectly stock so that I have options in the future.....

I respect that. I was thinking about upgrading the machine; the hot hone discussion put me in the upgrade mindset.

If the question is, do you prefer new or reconditioned? I will choose new every time. If the question is, do you prefer off the shelf or tailored? I prefer tailored as long as the tailoring is high quality. I look at the hand fitment and finishing described as a custom performance upgrade rather than reconditioning.  IMHO the oversize issue is low risk.

djkak

[StreetDog]

Yep you guessed it... I AM NEW TO THIS SITE.. A lot of good stuff and advice here. Maybe you guys can give me your advice on some mild engine mods I am looking to do. I have the 07' SERK ( red ), my third CVO bike. I want to change out the exhaust with D & D Fatcats 2 into 1 with the ghost pipe on the left. Also the SERT, K&N air filter, and different cams. Just want it to perform like the 110 should from the factory without all the EPA choke holds. Here's the problem : from what I have read here and heard from my perferred dealer is that the early 110's have the same rocker boxes on them that the 96's have ( and mine would be one of those early release bikes )and that I can't do the cams unless I do some other mods. By the way I also heard the MOCO changed the rocker boxes in or around Oct. He is suggesting some mild headwork , like cleaning up the ports and behind the valves for better flow and upping the compression with a thinner head gasket. The cleaning up part sounds OK if that will be enough to get these heads to flow well,( that is one question I have about the heads). But I'm not crazy about the thinner gasket idea. I understand that the MOCO just came out with a new piston for the 110 engine. It is a 10.25 to 1 compression and hard anodized Teflon impregnated for quieter and better durability. And if I have to take the heads off anyway I thought about changing to this piston. Is this a good idea? So now we have exhaust,SERT,K&N filter,correcting the clearances in the rocker boxes,cleaning up the heads and the new pistons; now which cams? I want to stay with HD parts so I am looking at the 251, 257 or 258 cams. Looking for something that has good torque around the low 2000's and good power up to or around 6000 rpm's. Something that would pull this heavy bike with two up or not and good power through the gears. Any technical help or advice would be appreciated.

[Unbalanced]

ok, so the heads come off, why do a part way job or quickie on them I would go for the complete job, the cost is not that much more to making sure you get good guides, good valves, and good springs with whatever collars the head guy wants to use.  Harley isnt using a bad guide (Ferrara sp?)  He can then also clearance your rockerboxes and make sure the cam you put in works well / future mods will work well such as more cam.    I would suggest the thinner head gasket as it allows for tighter squish values.   In reference to the cam I dont think there is enough information out yet for lower end torque to decide whether the 257 / 260 will work better in the bikes.   My guess is the 257 with the increased compression / flow on the heads.   They worked really well in teh 103's with 10.5 to 1 compression, but harley dealer here locally has only done the 260 / 264 and neither of the guys is super happy that I know of.   The other consideration you may look at while doing all this is the Screaming Eagle 50mm throttlebody with the larger injectors.   They up the flow from 3.91 to 4.89 gm/sec.

I would suggest the headwork, the 10.25's to one you have built in compression releases and the headwork.   The cam I would choose if it were me and staying all harley would be the 257 to start and the cometic 030 gasket.
Good luck with your build let us know what you decide to do.

[bisounours]

Good afternoon KingDog,

I send you the    from FRANCE.

It'll be nice for the other members if you present you in the thread "New Member Introduction",
with a pic of your bike. 

Best regards

    Jacques

[BOT]

MOCO changed the rocker boxes in or around Oct. How can one find out what month the bike was built?
Thanks,
Bot

[djkak]

MOCO changed the rocker boxes in or around Oct. How can one find out what month the bike was built?
Thanks,
Bot

The month and year manufactured are on a sticker on a frame downtube.

djkak

[hard10]

Welcome aboard KingDog. Great 1st post. I'm sure you'll get your answers here.

[hard10]

Skippy,

I would not let them hone your cylinders, here is the problem.   Unless they can keep the cylinders under a heat load and torque them down correctly and keep them heated while they hone them they will never be perfectly ROUND.   
I would have them get you NEW Cylinders and not mess with trying to make it work.   See my suggestion below.

In regards to the spring clearances its not as big a deal as it is made out to seem.  It is just a tiny bit of dremel work to clearance the rocker boxes to give you the .010 that is necessary to have clearance.   What seems to be happening is that when they line them up to start installing the rocker boxes they go on perfectly spaced, but as they get tightened down they can move just slightly and then you get the noise.   Since they have your cylinders off to mic them its a piece of cake to fix the clearances.

A buddy of mine Brian with 07 SERK had this issue and Clermont Harley fixed it by clearancing the rocker boxes for him.

Here is another idea for you.   Since your going to have to have your cylinders honed why not go with the 10.5 to 1 pistons / juggs while your in there the cost is probably going to be less than them making you custom pistons to fit or over sizing your jugs to use the .005 over pistons.    Then you would only need to add in the Screaming Eagle 50mm Throttle body which comes with the larger injectors and the Freedom FCC 13 cam.   Its just a thought.

Keep us posted on your progress,

-harry

Harry, I just reread this thread for the upteenth time. Is this what you were talking about on my bike when we were in Daytona? If so, what steps should I take? The bike is at the dealer today. Should they be notified about the noise problem for documentation purposes in case there is a problem in the future? And no I'm not talking about the rev-limiter noise! 
If this is only a small wearing problem, wouldn't it 'wear' itself out? I mean, after time wouldn't the pistons wear to a point were the noise was eliminated? Thanks.