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Author Topic: Open letter to Harley Davidson  (Read 6912 times)

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Glenncarp

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Open letter to Harley Davidson
« on: February 01, 2019, 11:03:52 AM »


First Harley was a 2004 Road King. Put 68,000 miles on it with no issues.

In 2011 I spent a ridiculous amount of money on a Road Glide CVO for which I paid $36,000 for a pleasure vehicle. One would think spending this ungodly amount of money you would have zero issues. Of course, not the case. I then stupidly purchased a 2016 Road Glide CVO for $40,000. Knowing the issues I had with the 2011. I spent an incredible amount of additional money for the extended warranty.

I found out that the Road Glide CVO did not come with the Boom Audio II package so I stupidly paid a Harley-Davidson dealer $2000 extra dollars for parts and labor to upgrade the system to the Boom Audio II. Three of the four speakers are blown less than a year and ½ after Harley parts and Harley-Davidson install. I just wasted 44 minutes on the phone with Harley-Davidson customer service for them to tell me that of course, their parts are not covered because I didn’t install them within 60 days of purchasing the bike.

This is why your sales were down 27% last year, this is why you can't attract a younger crowd. This is why your parts are garbage. This is why I will go buy aftermarket speakers, which by the way have to be 2 OHM because you set your audio systems up so badly to prevent people from buying other parts and you tune your equalizers to stupid levels which are not changeable on the bike. It’s also unheard of that you can’t pair a Bluetooth headset with your system, you have to buy cheaply made but expensive Harley-Davidson headsets and actually plug them in to the bike unless you want to spend an additional $500 for a module. Every car/truck I have bought in the last 10 years has seamlessly paired with my garage door opener. I can go to the local hardware store and buy a $0.50 garage door opener button that pairs to my garage door opener. However, you can’t make the garage door transmitter on your bikes read a simple code for the garage door, you have to sell a plug-in receiver which fails continually.

My next bike will certainly not be a Harley-Davidson, I spent over $90,000 on your bikes and get nothing but frustration when your lousy parts and designs fail.

Seriously, what a shame for an American company
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2019, 11:06:39 AM »

Yuuuup
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HarleyJeffOregon

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2019, 11:36:33 AM »

No words. But YUP!
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r0de_runr

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2019, 11:57:36 AM »

That's right. I agree.  No more HD junk for me.
No, you cant have my 14 Limited.

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2019, 12:05:13 PM »

Yup, but It will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2019, 12:10:18 PM »

What is a shame is the decision you made to vent your spleen on a Harley-Davidson forum.

Harley-Davidson are well renowned even over here to be 'warts 'n' all' type vehicles with idiosyncrasies not offered by many other marques. When buying a CVO you are entering into an iconic brand at the very top end of the market when all the important bits are exactly the same as the cheaper models, it's the bells, whistles, gizmos and paint you are paying through the nose for, nothing more. Why would any of the extras be superior in quality to the rest of the bike? As stated 'warts 'n' all.' If you wanted absolute perfection maybe a Honda or BMW would have been better? A few pointers: Sales may be down but in the fourth quarter of last year Harley-Davidson posted a profit of 495 million dollars. Younger crowd will be attracted hopefully by the Streetfighter 975. You should have perhaps read the small print if you wanted everything warranted?

Shut the door quietly on your way out! Go try Indian they've bought out some interesting new models if you want to stick with 'home brand' or sell the bikes and get another truck/car with the much needed Bluetooth capability.

 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 12:24:57 PM by k9f »
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dayne66

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2019, 12:24:46 PM »

What is a shame is the decision you made to vent your spleen on a Harley-Davidson forum.


 
He's not the only one that has experienced the decline of Harley's quality and de-contenting of the CVOs.......dealer service getting worse and worse......Parts on a new EXPENSIVE CVO that need to be upgraded......In the 14 years I have been dealing with Harley ( and personally seeing the ordeals of owners of newer bikes) I have gone from thinking I would continue to get a new bike every 2 years and having a good relationship with my local dealer to keeping my '12 and avoiding the dealer when-ever possible to keep the '12 in top shape. (Note: the local dealer went from Steve Drane to Barnes: a conglomerate).

This IS the place to vent!!!.....many of us are feeling the same way!
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dayne66

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2019, 12:27:25 PM »

That's right. I agree.  No more HD junk for me.
No, you cant have my 14 Limited.


That's right. I agree. No more HD junk for me.
No you can't have my_____________. The sentiments of a growing number of owners!
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k9f

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2019, 12:36:21 PM »

…..This IS the place to vent!!!.....many of us are feeling the same way!


Maybe so but we all have choices, spleen venting achieves nothing especially on an enthusiasts forum perhaps? It lends the poster to lack of sympathy and a scenario whereupon the OP is the 'Wabbit' being hunted by Elmer J Fudd. I can understand his frustration a little as I was eagerly awaiting the arrival of the 975 Streetfighter offering on it's way. With my own experiences I decided after much deliberation and reflection to head for another American iconic brand to see what their FTR1200S is all about.

No you can't have my_____________. The sentiments of a growing number of owners!

Count me in that crowd! Be thankful your bikes were Twinkies they could have had several engine changes by now had they been M8s.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 12:42:08 PM by k9f »
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2019, 12:50:53 PM »

Understand the OP's frustration. Rode Harleys ( 12 new bikes including a CVO Ultra ) for 28 years. Had some great times and rides.

Recently test rode an 18 BMW K1600B or Bagger. What a motorcycle. Liked it so much i bought one. You really gotta ride one to appreciate.

That said; I'd still like to own a Harley and hope to buy another. It will be a older bike. A simple Harley.

Harleys loss of sales is not simply due to baby boomers aging out. It's due to competition from the used bike market with low prices on low mile bikes and due to unprecedented competition. In my humble opinion, the only reason for buying a new HD touring bike is because you have a loyalty to Harley ( look, sound and feel ) and won't consider anything else. Not knocking, just the facts. Harley does not lead with performance, quality, handling, ride or features.

By the way, BMW has their faults too. Comes down to what you value most.

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CVOStreetglide

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2019, 01:07:58 PM »


Maybe so but we all have choices, spleen venting achieves nothing especially on an enthusiasts forum perhaps? It lends the poster to lack of sympathy and a scenario whereupon the OP is the 'Wabbit' being hunted by Elmer J Fudd. I can understand his frustration a little as I was eagerly awaiting the arrival of the 975 Streetfighter offering on it's way. With my own experiences I decided after much deliberation and reflection to head for another American iconic brand to see what their FTR1200S is all about.

Count me in that crowd! Be thankful your bikes were Twinkies they could have had several engine changes by now had they been M8s.


So you’re a “newbe” to the forum, apparantly don’t own a motorcycle yet and you;

1.  Verbally attack a existing member with taking the time to;

2. Understand that this is a Harley-Davidson CVO Enthusiest forum NOT an official Harley-Davidson forum.

3.  That the members here share their ownership experiences - both good and bad so others can learn from them or they can gain some additional information to help resolve their issues. 

I honestly hope you will consider taking few steps back and try to learn the gist of how things actually work here along with learning the interactions of the existing members.

Having done that you may decide that this particular forum isn’t a good fit for your needs and interests and seek another venue.

Either way, ride safe.   


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LC110

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2019, 01:10:43 PM »

Quote
It will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes.

For those of us old enough to remember this reminds of the AMF years all over again.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2019, 01:35:06 PM »

Quote
frustration when your lousy parts and designs fail

I read on the internet that they all do that. 
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2002FXDWG3

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2019, 02:12:55 PM »

Each and every one of us has a "vote" - and that vote is where we spend our money.  Negative comments like this could be invaluable feedback to a company.  Gives them an indication of what the future looks like.  Sales numbers and annual reports are telling the real story.
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k9f

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 02:31:00 PM »


So you’re a “newbe” to the forum, apparantly don’t own a motorcycle yet and you;
………..

Either way, ride safe.


Sincere Apologies to the OP for the thread drift!  :jack:

Forums generally are overladen with bad news not good! Many people register simply to sell something, find the solution to a particular issue and then bugger off with nothing to contribute until the next item is located to be sold or another problem arises. Forums are supposed to be also for well-balanced reasoned debate.

Thank you so much for the ride safe wishes, they are reciprocated wholeheartedly. With your opening gambit please do not make rash assumptions about not owning a bike as a quick trawl would have revealed that I would not have joined this fine forum without owning a CVO. I could of course list my worldly goods in the way of motorcycles past and present in my signature block as many do, but I have a choice and choose not to.

The introduction is there too as are several pictures.... :oops:

https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=116568.msg1474147#msg1474147
 
Also as a 'Newbie' as you so elloquently put it my post count may be low but that is because there is little of interest, this particular thread did interest me.

As for the 'verbal attack' if I have offended the OP I apologise it was not my intent and if you deem that a verbal attack once again it is misjudged.
 

Best wishes to you and everybody else from 'The Newbie on Other Side of the Pond!'  :pepper:



 

« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 02:57:35 PM by k9f »
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Phreakyz

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2019, 02:53:54 PM »


Forums generally are overladen with bad news not good! Many people register simply to sell something, find the solution to a particular issue and then bugger off with nothing to contribute until the next item is located to be sold or another problem arises. Forums are supposed to be also for well-balanced reasoned debate.

Thank you so much for the ride safe wishes, they are reciprocated wholeheartedly. With your opening gambit please do not  make rash assumptions about not owning a bike as a quick trawl would have revealed that I would not have joined this fine forum without owning a CVO. The introduction is there as are several pictures....oops! Best wishes to you and everybody else from 'The Other Side of the Pond!'

Don't feel bad.  I am sorry for the original poster's experience but that is not the experience shared by everyone.   This site is full of Harley Haters.   Anyone who posts something in support of HD gets bashed for being a "Fan Boy" or a "Cheerleader."      I am on my 5th Harley Davidson.   I have loved them all and had Great Experiences with them all.    My '12 no issues.  My 2016 had Boom II - never had an issue.    My 2019 so far has been a Dream and I would recommend it to anyone!   

Every time I have gotten a new HD I have been impressed with the improvements.
Just Ignore the Haters and post what you feel.     :2vrolijk_21:
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Haird

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2019, 03:03:43 PM »

What is a shame is the decision you made to vent your spleen on a Harley-Davidson forum.

Harley-Davidson are well renowned even over here to be 'warts 'n' all' type vehicles with idiosyncrasies not offered by many other marques. When buying a CVO you are entering into an iconic brand at the very top end of the market when all the important bits are exactly the same as the cheaper models, it's the bells, whistles, gizmos and paint you are paying through the nose for, nothing more. Why would any of the extras be superior in quality to the rest of the bike? As stated 'warts 'n' all.' If you wanted absolute perfection maybe a Honda or BMW would have been better? A few pointers: Sales may be down but in the fourth quarter of last year Harley-Davidson posted a profit of 495 million dollars. Younger crowd will be attracted hopefully by the Streetfighter 975. You should have perhaps read the small print if you wanted everything warranted?

Shut the door quietly on your way out! Go try Indian they've bought out some interesting new models if you want to stick with 'home brand' or sell the bikes and get another truck/car with the much needed Bluetooth capability.

Well, glad to know that the "Supreme Being" is alive and well here on the forum in the form of k9f and, being he's not been here very long and already deciding to move on to the new Indian offering, decides to degrade the opinion of a well-known, long standing member, Glenncarp.  I just love this forum.... ;D

Sorry about the above comment...iritated I am still restricted to ride (medically) and it came through in my blurb. I do love this forum, however... ;D

As for the OP's original comment/letter, I agree with his sentiment. Glenn, I would put that to pen and paper and send many copies to the MoCo.  While it won't get you anywhere, you will feel better about the vent.  I've been straddling the MoCo offering since I first rode my dad's 1972 ElectraGlide...talk about a rattle trap but it was fun.  My first "owned" HD was an '89 EG and I've been on some sort of HD ever since (with a few diversions from time to time)...that's 30 years of frustration.  My letter would be much, much, much longer.  However, with all the issues I've been through including poor designs, poor workmanship, poor quality control and very poor decisions in "cheapening" the parts for profit, I've got way too much invested in clothing with the HD logo on it to change now... :2vrolijk_21:

Will my '15 be my last new HD?  Probably will.  Nothing they currently have stirs the soul and if they go in the youth direction with new models, they won't have anything in the near or far future for me either. 

I pray they continue on and prosper...I'll need the parts for repairs at some point down the line... ;D
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 10:13:08 AM by Haird »
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k9f

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2019, 03:07:17 PM »

Another assumption. NOT moving on at all but increasing the stable like the long list you have. Sorry it's not another Harley!

Thank you for your post Phreakyz. I too can sympathise a little with the OP's frustration having spent so much money for so much disappointment. I too have spent an inordinate amount on new Harley-Davidsons in the past 6 years having arrived perhaps later in life to the marque. My experiences have been painless and a great adventure.

I don't feel bad in the slightest it's the "Newbie Haters" and "self appointed Moderators" that I find irksome. Some of you obviously need to go get a room! :orange:

See y'all!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 03:09:20 PM by k9f »
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lyn.husen

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Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2019, 03:50:25 PM »

For those of us old enough to remember this reminds of the AMF years all over again.
Wow, I resemble that.
No more HD for me, I will keep my 09 FLTRSE3 which I purchased used as I always wanted this particular CVO & have now owned it four years this month.
Next bike will be a BMW K1600B or maybe the Grand America. Not sure as of this moment but i will have it before the end of 2019.

Now nothing against Harley as at one point I owned 2 Road Glides, but finally figured out that if I want two they shouldn’t be the same.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 05:46:58 PM by lyn.husen »
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DOCGSS

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2019, 05:16:22 PM »

Understand the OP's frustration. Rode Harleys ( 12 new bikes including a CVO Ultra ) for 28 years. Had some great times and rides.

Recently test rode an 18 BMW K1600B or Bagger. What a motorcycle. Liked it so much i bought one. You really gotta ride one to appreciate.

That said; I'd still like to own a Harley and hope to buy another. It will be a older bike. A simple Harley.

Harleys loss of sales is not simply due to baby boomers aging out. It's due to competition from the used bike market with low prices on low mile bikes and due to unprecedented competition. In my humble opinion, the only reason for buying a new HD touring bike is because you have a loyalty to Harley ( look, sound and feel ) and won't consider anything else. Not knocking, just the facts. Harley does not lead with performance, quality, handling, ride or features.

By the way, BMW has their faults too. Comes down to what you value most.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Actually BMW has the HIGHEST frequency of repair of any motorcycle brand, Yamaha having the least. Yes it is a great motorcycle, but their bikes like their cars have horrid  repair frequency rates,
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Glenncarp

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2019, 09:03:33 AM »

What is a shame is the decision you made to vent your spleen on a Harley-Davidson forum.

Harley-Davidson are well renowned even over here to be 'warts 'n' all' type vehicles with idiosyncrasies not offered by many other marques. When buying a CVO you are entering into an iconic brand at the very top end of the market when all the important bits are exactly the same as the cheaper models, it's the bells, whistles, gizmos and paint you are paying through the nose for, nothing more. Why would any of the extras be superior in quality to the rest of the bike? As stated 'warts 'n' all.' If you wanted absolute perfection maybe a Honda or BMW would have been better? A few pointers: Sales may be down but in the fourth quarter of last year Harley-Davidson posted a profit of 495 million dollars. Younger crowd will be attracted hopefully by the Streetfighter 975. You should have perhaps read the small print if you wanted everything warranted?

Shut the door quietly on your way out! Go try Indian they've bought out some interesting new models if you want to stick with 'home brand' or sell the bikes and get another truck/car with the much needed Bluetooth capability.

Perhaps you did not comprehend my post. It was not to recount how HD quality has declined, not to replay issues I and others have had with HD. It was to vent (yes, that's what you do on forms) about how I spent a butt load of money on another CVO (Of course I knew what I was getting, was my second such purchase) it was the fact that I spent ADDITIONAL money on an extended service plan, then ADDITIONAL money of Harley parts and labor and when this ADDITIONAL parts failed after spending the ADDITIONAL money on the service plan and parts and labor, HD pulled their "we do not cover that because....."

Sorry you did not get my post and looks like you are new to the form, if I were you, get used to useful posts on equipment, tons of information on parts, modifications, trailers, Ect, Ect, but also get used to us bitching about Harley and their decline in workmanship and customer service.

And I (as another form member suggested) sent a letter to the CEO of Harley. I had done so many years ago to GMC and to their credit, they responded a day after they receoved my letter. Lets see if Harley follows the same path
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 09:11:29 AM by Glenncarp »
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k9f

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2019, 01:04:18 PM »

Perhaps you did not comprehend my post...…..Sorry you did not get my post and looks like you are new to the form...….And I (as another form member suggested) sent a letter to the CEO of Harley. I had done so many years ago to GMC and to their credit, they responded a day after they receoved my letter. Lets see if Harley follows the same path


I obviously did misconstrue your post as a simple spleen vent and thank you for the clarification. Apologies as there was no offence meant or implied.  You stated your next bike will not be a Harley and that was something I could relate to, as being fortunate enough to be in the position to have two bikes my second bike will never be a Harley as a single bike cannot tick all my boxes and there is nothing in the Harley line up that currently can. Maybe the Streetfighter when it arrives?

Everybody has to start somewhere and being a 'Newbie' has little relevance IMHO. I have been an active member of many forums over the years and whilst I love my CVO that too has it's foibles. I would like to think this forum is the same as others without being too 'elitist' and one can post without being at a disadvantage just because one is new? Surely that is what the 'Report to Moderator' button is for?   

As the original thread starter your explanation is a well balanced and reasoned one and I wish you all the very best on your quest for a successful resolution. Post up what happens as I am interested. At least you didn't turn on the Newbie without reading what I had written. You have quite a following.

Best Wishes from T'other Side of the Pond.  :dankk2:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 01:17:29 PM by k9f »
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hogsty

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2019, 09:19:29 PM »

I'm confused.

Are you saying their sales are down because you kept buying stuff from them?





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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2019, 11:19:57 AM »

Nope, saying sales are down because of things I brought up in my original post. Saying I am getting off of the HD merry go round for next bike as it appears a lot of the public is:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/03/harley-davidson-sales-go-from-bad-to-worse.aspx
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 11:23:59 AM by Glenncarp »
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naitram

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2019, 08:52:09 AM »

I don't feel bad in the slightest it's the "Newbie Haters" and "self appointed Moderators" that I find irksome. Some of you obviously need to go get a room! :orange:

See y'all!

i can accept that some things get lost in translation between our 2 sides of the pond, but you need to take a step back and relax.

there are no newbie haters here and what you call self appointed moderators id call active and passionate members. give em a chance you might just find you fit in.

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k9f

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2019, 12:18:23 PM »

Haird and Naitram,

Thank you both so much for the post amendment and clarification respectively. The reason for my somewhat vociferous initial response to Glenncarp's post was I can be as passionate as the next about the Harley-Davidson marque. I like this forum despite my limited input. I also love my CVO much more than I ever did the ex-wife. Whilst not trying to find excuses what I do know is that 32 years in the military with four tours in sandy places has made me a lot less tolerant than I once was. Best ever time was spent over four months on TDY at Eglin AFB staying at Fort Walton Beach but that's another story for another time. Apologies! Sorry about the thread jack too!
 
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groupw

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2019, 11:51:49 PM »

Open Letter to Harley Davidson

......Dear Mr. Matthew Levatich,
Please build one'a the 2020 CVO Road Glide Ultras with a yellow color scheme.   :huepfenjump3:
i'm gettin' old waiting here & want one'a them w/o having to repaint it
Thank you.
groupw
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CHH_Badkarma

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2019, 12:04:32 AM »

As much as I do approve of folks writing the MoCo and giving honest feedback, we all know if often amounts to nothing in the grand scheme of things. The way to effect change is the tried and true method of voting with your dollar by spending it else where.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2019, 07:28:36 AM »

Gosh I like this thread....a little edgy in some posts but some good points too.
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sabraitis

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2019, 07:36:53 AM »

Gosh I like this thread....a little edgy in some posts but some good points too.

Me too.  Listen, everyone complaining has invested in HD MoCo and been disappointed.  At least they aren't other brand HD haters.  Obviously serious concerns and I too would have the same sour taste in my mouth.  So far the only issue is the chitty stereo that is now being upgraded.  Otherwise my '18 CVO limited is all that.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2019, 10:51:10 AM »

 news flash HD has never made a stereo sys that will perform like the after market... so up grading with HD parts only means what  :nixweiss:      sorry about your issues glenn, but there is plenty of info on the forum to know better 
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2019, 11:03:09 AM »

Freddy, read them all, did aftermarket with '11, Pete had to send me three different Focal speakers and installed 2 Sony head units, neither I could see due to angle of RG. This time decided to go with HD and keep head unit thinking that they installed upgrade, they installed their product and set it up. Assuming, stupidly, they would stand behind their work and set up. This was my entire point. Love the bike, was not complaining about the bike in general, complaining about HD workmanship and lack of responsibility to its high end users. I went so far above spending $40K on bike by also buying extended service plan and $2K in audio upgrade, HD needs to be responsible for the junk it sells if 3 of 4 speakers blow after less than 1.5 years and not give
customers the typical "not covered" spin
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 11:06:23 AM by Glenncarp »
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ultra13

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2019, 12:29:27 PM »

I agree with the comments of that it seems you hear more complaints on here than kudos. After my first 2 Harleys I bought my first CVO Ultra. I love it..The color/power/looks and easy to do my own Maintenance.
Some mentioned about the BMWs. I have 2 friends that have sold theirs in frustration due to "nobody close by works on these things" and just plan ole dependability issues. You can find H/D dealerships everywhere! I (thank God) have never had any major issues with mine. I do have to ask the people with all these speakers that blow...Are you turning the stereo up to 11 with Black Sabbath? lol  I only say that because the stock system on my CVO is enough for me even though I seldom listen to it. I would rather hear the wind and my pipes. But that is me.
There will be good and bad aspects for every bike out there. I honestly believe there are way more satisfied Harley owners out there than disgruntled. I do feel for the few that have had a bad experience.
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Glenncarp

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2019, 12:49:31 PM »

Funny you should mention "hearing wind and pipes" I am seriously considering looking at the Road King Special. I know, I know, going against my prior comment on buying another Harley. Here is why though:

114 CI on a 650 lb bike= rocket ship!

No added electronics to piss me off when they fail/break

No relying on GPS, old school, study the map and ride, if you get "lost", who cares, you are on a rocket ship!

3.5 years left on CVO,owe less than $22K on it, SHOULD not be upside down according to my limited research. Can probably but RK special for less years and less $ per month

Back to basics, no music, no CB, no GPS to interrupt the wind in the ears.

Anyone done this? Any comments? This is a great active form, I am sure there will be many of both

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cvosjoe

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2019, 04:04:35 PM »



Funny you should mention "hearing wind and pipes" I am seriously considering looking at the Road King Special. I know, I know, going against my prior comment on buying another Harley. Here is why though:

114 CI on a 650 lb bike= rocket ship!

No added electronics to piss me off when they fail/break

No relying on GPS, old school, study the map and ride, if you get "lost", who cares, you are on a rocket ship!

3.5 years left on CVO,owe less than $22K on it, SHOULD not be upside down according to my limited research. Can probably but RK special for less years and less $ per month

Back to basics, no music, no CB, no GPS to interrupt the wind in the ears.

Anyone done this? Any comments? This is a great active form, I am sure there will be many of both

I thought the same as you. Lighter bike, 114 CI, a little work and a good tune it would be a monster. After checking wet weights compared to a Street Glide Special I was surprised that the wet weight of a 2018/2019 Road King Special is 820 lbs. The Street Glide is 836 lbs.
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Glenncarp

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2019, 04:07:46 PM »

Wow, that is surprising, however it does have stretched saddle bags. Guess the fairing does not weigh that much!
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skratch

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2019, 04:33:20 PM »

I went so far above spending $40K on bike by also buying extended service plan and $2K in audio upgrade, HD needs to be responsible for the junk it sells if 3 of 4 speakers blow after less than 1.5 years and not give
customers the typical "not covered" spin

when i read your original post, and then again this, it makes me wonder what the time frame you are talking about is?  (suggestion for your letter, be specific about dates, times, etc.).  your op says you bought the audio after 2 months so it wouldn't be covered under original bike warranty.  the standard warranty for p&a stuff is 1 year, so that basically leaves a 4 month window that you could've bought the equipment and still have some kind of warranty if they would have incorporated it into your new bike warranty.  after that time frame, it would have to fall under esp, which it is well known that esp does not cover speakers.  head units, yes.  amplifiers, yes.  speakers, no.

while it does suck that they didn't last, i typically figure that speakers are like brake rotors.  eventually, they're going to have to be replaced.  we ask an awful lot of them, in the worst conditions available.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2019, 08:32:49 AM »

Actually BMW has the HIGHEST frequency of repair of any motorcycle brand, Yamaha having the least. Yes it is a great motorcycle, but their bikes like their cars have horrid  repair frequency rates,
Actually; they are rated really close to Harley in this area. I can tell you from personal experience that BMW owners expect perfection. They don't live with any issue.

I've owned 12 new Harleys and i bmw K1600B or bagger. My experience is that the BMW is very high quality. Do they have failures? Yes. My bike had a seal issue. It was repaired but took longer to fix due to shipping parts from Germany. They replaced the whole transmission rather than replacing the bad seal. BMW also paid me $300 for my inconvenience, as i customer relationship gesture.

They sure aren't perfect but you can see the quality and engineering when you look close. Incredible motorcycle to ride.

Back to Harley. Still love them, just a different bike. My next Harley will be used.

Yamaha does build a great bike. It simply doesn't stir my soul. Not knocking, just not for me.

Harley will survive and continue market dominance. They build beautiful motorcycles.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

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Glenncarp

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2019, 09:30:11 AM »

Actually; they are rated really close to Harley in this area. I can tell you from personal experience that BMW owners expect perfection. They don't live with any issue.

I've owned 12 new Harleys and i bmw K1600B or bagger. My experience is that the BMW is very high quality. Do they have failures? Yes. My bike had a seal issue. It was repaired but took longer to fix due to shipping parts from Germany. They replaced the whole transmission rather than replacing the bad seal. BMW also paid me $300 for my inconvenience, as i customer relationship gesture.

They sure aren't perfect but you can see the quality and engineering when you look close. Incredible motorcycle to ride.

Back to Harley. Still love them, just a different bike. My next Harley will be used.

Yamaha does build a great bike. It simply doesn't stir my soul. Not knocking, just not for me.

Harley will survive and continue market dominance. They build beautiful motorcycles.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

All good points, the highlight to me was the stark difference in the customer service between what you experienced with BMW and I with HD. That was the basis of my original post. Bet you didn't pay $40k for the BMW, yet they paid you for inconvenience! That is so unheard of when dealing with Harley-Davidson yet their bikes are the most expensive out there
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hogsty

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2019, 04:03:42 PM »

Nope, saying sales are down because of things I brought up in my original post. Saying I am getting off of the HD merry go round for next bike as it appears a lot of the public is:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/03/harley-davidson-sales-go-from-bad-to-worse.aspx
Article is almost a year old.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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Glenncarp

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2019, 04:06:52 PM »

And sales are still the same
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2019, 09:55:21 PM »

All good points, the highlight to me was the stark difference in the customer service between what you experienced with BMW and I with HD. That was the basis of my original post. Bet you didn't pay $40k for the BMW, yet they paid you for inconvenience! That is so unheard of when dealing with Harley-Davidson yet their bikes are the most expensive out there
Your right. My K1600B bagger was 24k. Not knocking Harley but my BMW has more features, power, handling than any new Harley at any price.

Harley does offer more chrome and fancier paint. Both great bikes just very different.

Your also right about how bmw treated me. In 28 years of Harley ownership they never offered me anything for my inconvenience when warranty issues occured. Considering this is my first BMW the service manager and service rep always call me by my name. When the parts dept sees me roll in they get my order ready in advance. Really freindly and knowledgeable folks.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

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k9f

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2019, 01:09:43 PM »

The Harley Dealership experience is very similar over here. They will literally fall over themselves if you are in the market to buy a machine off them, however their temperament changes somewhat to nonchalance once they have your money. I don't think it matters where you are but many (myself included) bought into Harley Davidson for the heritage, camaraderie and following not for the silky smooth gear change latest electronic technology etc.

I have a second bike not a Harley-Davidson that I am currently selling and moving on to another brand, the dealership experience for the second bike has been a very positive one as they seem to respect, listen and honour existing customers. Harley-Davidson I think rely too much on people such as myself that love the iconic brand but not necessarily for the standard of service. 
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2019, 04:57:30 PM »

The Harley Dealership experience is very similar over here. They will literally fall over themselves if you are in the market to buy a machine off them, however their temperament changes somewhat to nonchalance once they have your money. I don't think it matters where you are but many (myself included) bought into Harley Davidson for the heritage, camaraderie and following not for the silky smooth gear change latest electronic technology etc.

I have a second bike not a Harley-Davidson that I am currently selling and moving on to another brand, the dealership experience for the second bike has been a very positive one as they seem to respect, listen and honour existing customers. Harley-Davidson I think rely too much on people such as myself that love the iconic brand but not necessarily for the standard of service.
I think many still behave as if it's still 2005. The year i was told i had to buy $2000 in accessories at msrp for the privilege of buying a new Harley. I walked out.

Many in the service side of the business have not been effected like the sales side,  thus they still have the attitude.

Also, I've heard Harley is getting tougher about warranty claims. Same for the extended service contracts.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2019, 08:37:53 PM »

I think many still behave as if it's still 2005. The year i was told i had to buy $2000 in accessories at msrp for the privilege of buying a new Harley. I walked out.

Many in the service side of the business have not been effected like the sales side,  thus they still have the attitude.

Also, I've heard Harley is getting tougher about warranty claims. Same for the extended service contracts.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

I have never had any attitude form the HD service Department I use since 2007.  They are very helpful and treat me great.  I have never had push back about warranty issues, in fact, they have pushed for HD to make it right for me. 

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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2019, 01:41:53 AM »

I have never had any attitude form the HD service Department I use since 2007.  They are very helpful and treat me great.  I have never had push back about warranty issues, in fact, they have pushed for HD to make it right for me.
That's why i said many. Certainly not all, might not even be most.

Glad you have a good one. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm pulling for Harley. Still like them very much.

They do need to up there game, cannot count on loyalty as the primary reason to choose Harley over other brands. I think they know this, it's why they are going to build non traditional bikes in the near future. As i said; pulling for them.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2019, 07:52:44 AM »

Nothing Mechanical is problem free. However when I researched how Polaris Industries treated their customers when they had some issues with their 116 big bore kit and how they resolved those issues. Compared to going into several HD dealerships and being lied to about how they have never even heard of the sumping issues on any 117 CVO bikes. I have decided to give Indian a try. The rumor on the street is the 2019 Chieftain Elite will be revealed on 2/26/2019. If I don't like that color I will get a Ruby Red. I have enjoyed the folks and the interaction on this forum over the last several years though.
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2002FXDWG3

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2019, 09:34:06 AM »

Interesting comment about the service department.  I've seen a change over the past 15+ years.  At one time the service managers were mainly the older senior techs that moved from the shop to the desk.  They really knew how to diagnose and quote repair work.  These days the service managers are more like salesmen than techs.

For me, if I was looking for a "traditional" style bike it would be Indian.  If I was looking for a "modern" bike it would be BMW.
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2019, 08:09:04 PM »

That's why i said many. Certainly not all, might not even be most.

Glad you have a good one. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm pulling for Harley. Still like them very much.

They do need to up there game, cannot count on loyalty as the primary reason to choose Harley over other brands. I think they know this, it's why they are going to build non traditional bikes in the near future. As i said; pulling for them.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Not arguing at all about Harley Issues.  Most all my issues are with Harley its self.  Poor quality control.  Poor support for their product.  Letting an issue stay for the entire production run.  Example the 110 engine and lifter failure, they never fixed it and never really tired.  For them, the few people that put enough mile on in 2 years to have warranty fix it was less expensive than a real fix.  To bad to the guy, who doesn't hit 40K mile until 3 or four or more years. 

Head units.  The 14 Rushmore head unit still has software bugs, cant even count how many updates to fix bugs, still has bugs.  19 Head unit on 3rd update for issues. 

On of the reasons I am still on a HD for my primary bike, is my local dealer and service department.  I am treated very well.


Service Director at the dealer I use is over all this owners Dealers.  He is or was their very best mechanic.  He gets involved when his mechanics can not figure it out.  When his mechanics say it can't be done, he shows them it can, if it can be done.  He is an avid rider, and like high performance Harleys.
Interesting comment about the service department.  I've seen a change over the past 15+ years.  At one time the service managers were mainly the older senior techs that moved from the shop to the desk.  They really knew how to diagnose and quote repair work.  These days the service managers are more like salesmen than techs.

For me, if I was looking for a "traditional" style bike it would be Indian.  If I was looking for a "modern" bike it would be BMW.
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Glenncarp

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2019, 02:40:45 PM »

First Harley was a 2004 Road King. Put 68,000 miles on it with no issues.

In 2011 I spent a ridiculous amount of money on a Road Glide CVO for which I paid $36,000 for a pleasure vehicle. One would think spending this ungodly amount of money you would have zero issues. Of course, not the case. I then stupidly purchased a 2016 Road Glide CVO for $40,000. Knowing the issues I had with the 2011. I spent an incredible amount of additional money for the extended warranty.

I found out that the Road Glide CVO did not come with the Boom Audio II package so I stupidly paid a Harley-Davidson dealer $2000 extra dollars for parts and labor to upgrade the system to the Boom Audio II. Three of the four speakers are blown less than a year and ½ after Harley parts and Harley-Davidson install. I just wasted 44 minutes on the phone with Harley-Davidson customer service for them to tell me that of course, their parts are not covered because I didn’t install them within 60 days of purchasing the bike.

This is why your sales were down 27% last year, this is why you can't attract a younger crowd. This is why your parts are garbage. This is why I will go buy aftermarket speakers, which by the way have to be 2 OHM because you set your audio systems up so badly to prevent people from buying other parts and you tune your equalizers to stupid levels which are not changeable on the bike. It’s also unheard of that you can’t pair a Bluetooth headset with your system, you have to buy cheaply made but expensive Harley-Davidson headsets and actually plug them in to the bike unless you want to spend an additional $500 for a module. Every car/truck I have bought in the last 10 years has seamlessly paired with my garage door opener. I can go to the local hardware store and buy a $0.50 garage door opener button that pairs to my garage door opener. However, you can’t make the garage door transmitter on your bikes read a simple code for the garage door, you have to sell a plug-in receiver which fails continually.

My next bike will certainly not be a Harley-Davidson, I spent over $90,000 on your bikes and get nothing but frustration when your lousy parts and designs fail.

Seriously, what a shame for an American company

And after all that, the letter came back to me for wrong address. Lol. I give up, not wasting time researching mailing address for CEO if he does not use the same one listed on every google search I did. He must not want that info out to the public.
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CVOJOE

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2019, 11:30:04 PM »

Try this:
Harley Davidson Inc 
Mr Matthew S. Levatich CEO     
Telephone (414) 342-4680 (Direct)
Switchboard 414-343-8553
Website https://www.harley-davidson.com   
Postal Address 3700 W Juneau Ave, Milwaukee, WI, 53208

 :bananarock: :mango: :orange:

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2019, 09:01:14 AM »

And after all that, the letter came back to me for wrong address. Lol. I give up, not wasting time researching mailing address for CEO if he does not use the same one listed on every google search I did. He must not want that info out to the public.

A good indication of how a person and a company really feel about their customers is in how easy or difficult they make it for those customers to contact them.  Last time I checked Harley still doesn't list a customer service email address, unlike most other companies these days, and they don't encourage/invite people to contact them if they have a problem.  That's a good sign of a company that really doesn't want to know how their customers really feel about the product or the company.

Jerry
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2019, 09:14:04 AM »

HD already has our money, so why would they ever want to speak to any of us?
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2019, 11:25:50 PM »

HD already has our money, so why would they ever want to speak to any of us?
this combined with the "You look cool on one" philosophy is what is killing HD IMO.

Lack of response to serious design issues/flaws combined with OUTDATED philosophy that has been the backbone of advertising has resulted in significant sales decline both abroad and domestic.

Sell a bike on it's merits (mechanical achievements), not because you say IT MAKES YOU FREE AND COOL.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2019, 03:46:23 PM »

First Harley was a 2004 Road King. Put 68,000 miles on it with no issues.

In 2011 I spent a ridiculous amount of money on a Road Glide CVO for which I paid $36,000 for a pleasure vehicle. One would think spending this ungodly amount of money you would have zero issues. Of course, not the case. I then stupidly purchased a 2016 Road Glide CVO for $40,000. Knowing the issues I had with the 2011. I spent an incredible amount of additional money for the extended warranty.

I found out that the Road Glide CVO did not come with the Boom Audio II package so I stupidly paid a Harley-Davidson dealer $2000 extra dollars for parts and labor to upgrade the system to the Boom Audio II. Three of the four speakers are blown less than a year and ½ after Harley parts and Harley-Davidson install. I just wasted 44 minutes on the phone with Harley-Davidson customer service for them to tell me that of course, their parts are not covered because I didn’t install them within 60 days of purchasing the bike.

This is why your sales were down 27% last year, this is why you can't attract a younger crowd. This is why your parts are garbage. This is why I will go buy aftermarket speakers, which by the way have to be 2 OHM because you set your audio systems up so badly to prevent people from buying other parts and you tune your equalizers to stupid levels which are not changeable on the bike. It’s also unheard of that you can’t pair a Bluetooth headset with your system, you have to buy cheaply made but expensive Harley-Davidson headsets and actually plug them in to the bike unless you want to spend an additional $500 for a module. Every car/truck I have bought in the last 10 years has seamlessly paired with my garage door opener. I can go to the local hardware store and buy a $0.50 garage door opener button that pairs to my garage door opener. However, you can’t make the garage door transmitter on your bikes read a simple code for the garage door, you have to sell a plug-in receiver which fails continually.

My next bike will certainly not be a Harley-Davidson, I spent over $90,000 on your bikes and get nothing but frustration when your lousy parts and designs fail.

Seriously, what a shame for an American company

UPDATE: Received call from MOCO today alerting me that the Boom! audio II speakers have a 2 year warrantee and I should take bike back to dealer to get them replaced. I didn't have the hear t to stop him and tell him that A: Traded bike in and B: Issue was found to be original amp which was covered. Wish first rep I spoke to knew that Boon II had 2 year warantee, but this just may prove that HD does pay attention to us occasionally when we complain.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2019, 05:33:09 PM »

 good to hear they got back to you, and with a positive response. congrats on the new ride... its a good looking ride  :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2019, 05:08:43 AM »

The product we love to Hate. 50 years ago (really) I used to love working on my bike, it was part of the experience.  I expected the (used) bikes that I could afford would need some work. 

Now with prices, research, engineering, and competition we should expect more out of $40k machines.  But Harley sells IMAGE first, the modern marketing thrust is all based on what you think and feel. It is why you buy another HD (after several bad experiences) and not a Honda.  Where would HD be if Marlon Brando rode a Suzuki?

Is it worth it?  Economically no, but that Badass image keeps us coming back.  The Willie G logo is a skull, not a smiley face.  This image has been one of the most successful marketing schemes in history.  However, sooner or later every Wizard, behind every curtain is exposed.  I believe that Harley-Davidson has reached that point, we have finally realized that you can have just as much fun riding a brand other than HD without the expense.  And they know it too, the recent trend from the MoCo is smaller, lighter, and more reasonably priced models.  In three years their stock has dropped from the low 60’s to the mid 30’s, Wall Street doesn’t miss much, they know what is going on.

I regret that Harley hasn’t made an effort to improve quality, service and Attitude.  I’ve heard it said that there is 20% profit at the dealership and at least that much to manufacturing.  Even at half that, there is enough to protect their market share by producing a truly quality product, sadly, they never did.

Harley-Davidson will not go away, but they will fade to a fraction of what they were.  Us Baby Boomers that always wanted a new HOG are shrinking, time is catching us.  Moreover, the next generation of riders hasn’t tasted the Badass Kool Aide, in fact they still like riding, probably more for the joy of it than the Image.

OWL
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Haird

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2019, 07:02:46 AM »

Where would HD be if Marlon Brando rode a Suzuki?


First off, I completely agree with your comments and the MoCo shouldn't be resting on their rumps hoping/praying that folks will continue to purchase the lifestyle.  Funny thing is they have always pushed rebel, individualism to be a Harley rider by selling all of their customers the same black outfits so they can all look alike... :nixweiss:

However, one small correction.  Johnny rode a Triumph (Thunderbird I believe?) but it was Chino (Lee Marvin's character) that rode the Harley.  By the way, Chino was the meaner one....on the Harley.

Sorry for the correction but I figure I'd jump in before someone else did... ;D
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owl893

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2019, 07:30:20 AM »

No problem Haird, the veiled reference was to suggest a "what if" someone other than HD stole the Image first.  But I have to admit, you youngsters have a better memory than I do.   :)

OWL
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2019, 07:46:51 AM »

HD can't buy publicity like this, and Roger Corman isn't making biker movies anymore.

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2019, 09:02:26 PM »

this combined with the "You look cool on one" philosophy is what is killing HD IMO.

Lack of response to serious design issues/flaws combined with OUTDATED philosophy that has been the backbone of advertising has resulted in significant sales decline both abroad and domestic.

Sell a bike on it's merits (mechanical achievements), not because you say IT MAKES YOU FREE AND COOL.
Owned new Harleys for 28 years, 12 of them. Including CVO's.

Recently i bought a new 18 BMW K1600 B or bagger. 160hp straight 6cyl stock, comfortable, handles and features Harley has only dreamed about. All for close to half of what you pay for a CVO. This includes an amazing clutch free shifting setup. You go through the gears up or down by simply tapping the shifter. Adds so much enjoyment to riding. Comes with Reverse, electronic adjustable suspension modes depending on load or type of riding desired.

Could go on and on. Not trying to put Harley down, i just believe they should compete.

BMW provides a 3yr, 36,000 mile warranty. Extended plans are much less expensive.

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2019, 08:15:48 AM »

Like others I have seen the interest in Harley’s ebb and flow through the years.

PRICE.  This is an issue however I see Millennials spend almost $15,000 for peddle bikes.  Go figure.   They have the money to spend.

CLUTCH.  None of our millennial kids nor their friends have ever driven a vehicle with a clutch....something for Harley to think about.  Just sayin.

WAR.  I hope to never live in a time of war again but some of Harley’s best sale years were during and after major wars.


I think we all need to accept the fact that the market demand for this type of product has lowered and will like stay that way.  As others have mentioned, it was us boomers that pushed this company up hill.  But we are going away ...irrevocably changing the long term market for this product and company
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 08:18:44 AM by bbrown »
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fastfreddy

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2019, 05:53:41 PM »

Owned new Harleys for 28 years, 12 of them. Including CVO's.

Recently i bought a new 18 BMW K1600 B or bagger. 160hp straight 6cyl stock, comfortable, handles and features Harley has only dreamed about. All for close to half of what you pay for a CVO. This includes an amazing clutch free shifting setup. You go through the gears up or down by simply tapping the shifter. Adds so much enjoyment to riding. Comes with Reverse, electronic adjustable suspension modes depending on load or type of riding desired.

Could go on and on. Not trying to put Harley down, i just believe they should compete.

BMW provides a 3yr, 36,000 mile warranty. Extended plans are much less expensive.

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    great... glad you love it..... the ford Taurus of motor cycles   :2vrolijk_21:
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 05:58:23 PM by fastfreddy »
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2019, 10:45:47 PM »

    great... glad you love it..... the ford Taurus of motor cycles   :2vrolijk_21:
Ya right.....had a guy on a pumped up Dyna blow by me the other day, after two light that i let him feel good i finally gave my B a little throttle, not really on it but more than normal. Blew by him like he was standing still. The next light he looked over and said some respectable words. Good guy.

Ford Taurus? Not hardly. Harleys are nice bikes. They are not leaders in performance, handling, features, brakes or comfort. BMW's have there issues as well but lack of performance is not one of them.

Actually, a Harley has more parts from China than BMW, big time.

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Ironhorse

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2019, 12:03:07 PM »

Anybody who buys a Harley knows what they're getting,...a Harley.
Not German high tech design and not Japanese dependability and comfort. They're getting a Harley.

So they should not be surprised that they get all that comes with having a Harley.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2019, 02:48:49 PM »

Anybody who buys a Harley knows what they're getting,...a Harley.
Not German high tech design and not Japanese dependability and comfort. They're getting a Harley.

So they should not be surprised that they get all that comes with having a Harley.

Agreed. That was also true for me in the 1970s.  Worked for guys who rode Harleys back then.  They didn't handle all that well, cost more, were bulky & heavy, and as for as performance - fuhgettaboutit.  German and Japanese bikes had more power, better handling, and cost less back then.  Not exactly apples to apples because things change, but is still generally true today.

What has changed is the MC buyer & the Baby Boomer generation desire for bigger cruisers vs the alternatives preferred by younger generations.
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fastfreddy

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #66 on: April 09, 2019, 05:45:14 PM »

Ya right.....had a guy on a pumped up Dyna blow by me the other day, after two light that i let him feel good i finally gave my B a little throttle, not really on it but more than normal. Blew by him like he was standing still. The next light he looked over and said some respectable words. Good guy.

Ford Taurus? Not hardly. Harleys are nice bikes. They are not leaders in performance, handling, features, brakes or comfort. BMW's have there issues as well but lack of performance is not one of them.

Actually, a Harley has more parts from China than BMW, big time.

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let me get this... your 6 cylinder beat a 2 cylinder... I have to go get my calculator ill be back   ???
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #67 on: April 09, 2019, 09:35:22 PM »

let me get this... your 6 cylinder beat a 2 cylinder... I have to go get my calculator ill be back   ???
1600cc 6cyl. Yes its an engineering work of art but like most high performance vehicles comes at a price.

That said; BMW hired one of the worlds best engine engineering companies to develop the K1600 motor. The same company that developed the 200mph+ Bugatti engine. BMW wanted the best touring motorcycle  motor available. Most who ride them feel they succeeded. A 160hp 6cyl 1600 that's smooth as butter without a counter balancer or rubber mounting.

Not ment to knock Harley just think the MoCo needs to compete. Design a competitive  engine, frame and suspension. Tradition is not going to keep the MoCo around for another 20 years.

I would have preferred buying a Harley, made in America with components made in America, competitive performance, frame and suspension. At least to the new V-twin Yamaha Venture standards.

I'm hoping for the best.

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2019, 09:56:38 PM »

IMHO, here's Harley's problem - they're trying to please everyone and they are pleasing no one.

By that I mean there seems to be essentially two motorcycle markets.  One for the "DIY" guy who doesn't care about big power and high tech.  Just wants an old fashioned Harley that he can tinker on for a relatively low price.  The other for the "modern" guy who wants gps, electronic everything, water cooled, big power, and doesn't want to do anything but ride it.

The idea of making big power on these ancient lawn mower engines is a joke.  Big inch twin cams and M8s all have reliability issues and even after throwing thousands of dollars at them still can't compete with a stock BMW or Honda off the showroom floor.

I thought it would have made sense to develop a modern touring bike based on the VRod engine, but HD killed it.

I don't see HD surviving selling overpriced, underperforming and unreliable bikes much longer.  Their customer service and handling of issues is compounding their problems.  They need big changes and a leader to take them in a different direction.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2019, 09:23:33 PM »

IMHO, here's Harley's problem - they're trying to please everyone and they are pleasing no one.

By that I mean there seems to be essentially two motorcycle markets.  One for the "DIY" guy who doesn't care about big power and high tech.  Just wants an old fashioned Harley that he can tinker on for a relatively low price.  The other for the "modern" guy who wants gps, electronic everything, water cooled, big power, and doesn't want to do anything but ride it.

The idea of making big power on these ancient lawn mower engines is a joke.  Big inch twin cams and M8s all have reliability issues and even after throwing thousands of dollars at them still can't compete with a stock BMW or Honda off the showroom floor.

I thought it would have made sense to develop a modern touring bike based on the VRod engine, but HD killed it.

I don't see HD surviving selling overpriced, underperforming and unreliable bikes much longer.  Their customer service and handling of issues is compounding their problems.  They need big changes and a leader to take them in a different direction.
Could not have said it better.

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owl893

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2019, 11:22:49 AM »

Ya right.....had a guy on a pumped up Dyna blow by me the other day, after two light that i let him feel good i finally gave my B a little throttle, not really on it but more than normal. Blew by him like he was standing still. The next light he looked over and said some respectable words. Good guy.

Ford Taurus? Not hardly. Harleys are nice bikes. They are not leaders in performance, handling, features, brakes or comfort. BMW's have there issues as well but lack of performance is not one of them.

Actually, a Harley has more parts from China than BMW, big time.


They Are leaders in t-shirt sales though.  :2vrolijk_21:

I do not regret owning my CVO, although imperfect, it runs and rides smooth enough for me, and I never get tired of it's curb appeal.  But I have to agree with several posts here, the product needs serious updates and the dealership experience must take a completely new direction based on customer satisfaction, not work order proficiency.

OWL
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2019, 10:32:32 PM »

Ya right.....had a guy on a pumped up Dyna blow by me the other day, after two light that i let him feel good i finally gave my B a little throttle, not really on it but more than normal. Blew by him like he was standing still. The next light he looked over and said some respectable words. Good guy.

Ford Taurus? Not hardly. Harleys are nice bikes. They are not leaders in performance, handling, features, brakes or comfort. BMW's have there issues as well but lack of performance is not one of them.

Actually, a Harley has more parts from China than BMW, big time.


They Are leaders in t-shirt sales though.  :2vrolijk_21:

I do not regret owning my CVO, although imperfect, it runs and rides smooth enough for me, and I never get tired of it's curb appeal.  But I have to agree with several posts here, the product needs serious updates and the dealership experience must take a completely new direction based on customer satisfaction, not work order proficiency.

OWL
Owl; my intent is not to put Harley or anyones CVO down. My hope is for Harley to become more competitive. They have motorcycle marketing down, better than anyone. They make beautiful bikes, at least to my eye. They simply need to focus a little more on function.

There is no excuse for a $40,000 bike to disappoint on any level. Upgrade the frame and suspension so the bike rides and handles. Make that suspension active and adjustable from handlebar controls. If your going to stay with a V-twin, use top quality components. Failures of any kind should be rare. If unable to deliver with a V-twin, build a top quality V-four. I know Harley can do it, focusing on electric bikes at this time in history is wrong. Compete on building Harleys, bikes that own the road.




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Ironhorse

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2019, 11:24:27 AM »

There is no excuse for a $40,000 bike to disappoint on any level. Upgrade the frame and suspension so the bike rides and handles. Make that suspension active and adjustable from handlebar controls. If your going to stay with a V-twin, use top quality components. Failures of any kind should be rare. If unable to deliver with a V-twin, build a top quality V-four. I know Harley can do it, focusing on electric bikes at this time in history is wrong. Compete on building Harleys, bikes that own the road.

Agreed.

However that is NOT HDs business plan. Their approach is to make the least effort, with the most simple changes and charge the most money. It takes a lot of time and money on R&D for adjustable suspension like a GoldWing. It's a lot easier to just use fancy paint and graphics backed with chrome.

Of course HD can do better, the V-Rod was and excellent bike, it was just in the wrong package. Lack of sales killed it. The M8 was the ideal time to come out with a fully water cooled engine, but the MoCo just cheaped out, like they always do.  Sumping is the result of poor design and engineering. Same with lifters and cam bearings.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2019, 02:48:09 PM »

In the meantime over on the Indian Forum there are spy pictures of an Indian in development with a fixed frame fairing like the Road Glide but also with a completely water cooled engine!!
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2019, 05:15:08 PM »

In the meantime over on the Indian Forum there are spy pictures of an Indian in development with a fixed frame fairing like the Road Glide but also with a completely water cooled engine!!
Smart!

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2019, 08:18:17 PM »

In the meantime over on the Indian Forum there are spy pictures of an Indian in development with a fixed frame fairing like the Road Glide but also with a completely water cooled engine!!

I knew they were working on a Fixed fairing.  I did not know about the water cooled.  This will be interesting.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2019, 12:14:47 PM »

I think what pisses me off more than anything is the big box corporate dealerships now. In the old days, you'd sit and have a beer with the owner and top guys, and talk shop. You'd just stop by to talk about what's coming down the pike, mods, etc. Everything was laid back and when you were ready to buy, you got fair deals. You walk in and they knew you by name.

Now this f$%*er Ozzie and his cohort investors have bought out just about every dealer with 50 miles of Chicago, and filled the places with a bunch of used car salesmen who are clueless. They have high pressure sales mgrs sitting on raised pedestals snapping fingers at their minions to attack the second you walk in. They start with the sales BS immediately and can't answer a single question. They now have cornered the market around here and they look at you like an alien if you even bring up club discounts or try to negotiate on a bike. F that.

Every time I go to parts, these guys are idiots. I have to look up my own stuff or they will f$%* it up. They don't have a friggin clue.

For years I was on the advisory panel, until I stopped answering personal questions about my f$%*ing income and chit. When it stopped being about the bikes, and only about my means, that was over the line.

I'm totally disgusted. I'm pretty well done with Harley too. I really don't care if they go belly up. The entire culture is gone. When they forced the independent owners out in favor of the big corporate machines, the writing was on the wall. Don't see any saving grace here.

My .02 fwiw.
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2019, 01:58:35 PM »

I think what pisses me off more than anything is the big box corporate dealerships now. In the old days, you'd sit and have a beer with the owner and top guys, and talk shop. You'd just stop by to talk about what's coming down the pike, mods, etc. Everything was laid back and when you were ready to buy, you got fair deals. You walk in and they knew you by name.

Now this f$%*er Ozzie and his cohort investors have bought out just about every dealer with 50 miles of Chicago, and filled the places with a bunch of used car salesmen who are clueless. They have high pressure sales mgrs sitting on raised pedestals snapping fingers at their minions to attack the second you walk in. They start with the sales BS immediately and can't answer a single question. They now have cornered the market around here and they look at you like an alien if you even bring up club discounts or try to negotiate on a bike. F that.

Every time I go to parts, these guys are idiots. I have to look up my own stuff or they will f$%* it up. They don't have a friggin clue.

For years I was on the advisory panel, until I stopped answering personal questions about my f$%*ing income and chit. When it stopped being about the bikes, and only about my means, that was over the line.

I'm totally disgusted. I'm pretty well done with Harley too. I really don't care if they go belly up. The entire culture is gone. When they forced the independent owners out in favor of the big corporate machines, the writing was on the wall. Don't see any saving grace here.

My .02 fwiw.
WOW, thought i was the only one. You nailed it. A loyal Harley rider for 28 years, loved the "old days" when a Harley dealership was "the shop". I could walk back to see the wrench working on my bike. He would explain things, it was a brotherhood. As stated, it didn't  feel like it was just about money. The focus was riding Harleys and a connection with other riders along with your shop.

Once the dealers got rich they wanted more. The MoCo forced the high overhead fashion centers known called Harley dealerships.

The primary buyers I've seen have been car dealer chains and they run the new HD shopping centers as such with the backing of the MoCo.

All said; i still hope Harley returns to being a motorcycle company for the riders first. Build competitive rides. For now I've jumped ship and bought a 18 BMW K1600 B or bagger. While not perfect, the best motorcycle I've ever owned. They don't buy crankshafts in China, they make them themselves in Germany. I would have preferred buying another Harley after the 12 new ones i have owned but decided to stop.

Personally I'm turned off by fake tattoos, Harley branded clothing made in China for twice the price, car dealer owned dealers with balloons like cheap used car lots. On and on.

Harleys answer; electric bikes?  Why not invest in quality and competitive motorcycles?



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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2019, 02:09:02 PM »

+1 well stated.

Once they started building those mammoth new dealerships the writing was on the wall.  You need to move a lot of merchandise and appeal to a bigger market to make monthly payments.

Seems they don't care much about making the best motorcycles anymore.  Just leveraging the HD brand.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 02:11:34 PM by 2002FXDWG3 »
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2019, 03:38:20 PM »

+1 well stated.

Once they started building those mammoth new dealerships the writing was on the wall.  You need to move a lot of merchandise and appeal to a bigger market to make monthly payments.

Seems they don't care much about making the best motorcycles anymore.  Just leveraging the HD brand.
Bingo! Recently read an article about a car dealership chain that started buying Harley stores. The owner said he had a Harley and figured he could make good money selling all the Harley "lifestyle "products including clothing. Guess they figure that you become a biker by buying MoCo clothing and accessories?  Makes me wanta puke.

I think some of the car dealership owners that purchased Harley dealerships have miss-read many of there customers. They don't understand that many that ride will just buy used from private parties or companies like rumbleon.com for thousands less. That many will go to independent shops for service and yes, even buy another brand.

Bikers have pride. They Don't like being screwed with, they generally are independent.

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2019, 08:53:57 PM »

Glad the dealership I use is not as you describe.  Yes, its a new mega store, opened in Sept 2004.  Not a Car company owner.

Owner is a business man who tried to open a store for 10 years before Harley let him open a store.  If you are a regular customer they know you by name, including the owner.  The salesmen know me, the sales manager knows me, motor clothes know me.  Parts dept knows me, Service director knows me and so on.  Since he opened that store, he has opened two more dealerships, 3 tee shirt shops and a used bike store.

Main store, has a bar and Smoke house on the property.  Also does concerts on Saturday nights.  Owner is a rider and damn good one at that, Sales Staff ride, mechanics ride, parts ride and some of motor clothes ride.

I would say Smokey Mountain Harley and its staff is a lot of why I still am on a Harley especially after my 15 that needed a new motor at 2 years old.

Dealer is very involved with riding.  They have a dealer lead ride every week.  They put on lots of riding events.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2019, 08:59:27 PM »

I agree there's still some good dealers/owners out there.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2019, 09:12:48 PM »

Glad the dealership I use is not as you describe.  Yes, its a new mega store, opened in Sept 2004.  Not a Car company owner.

Owner is a business man who tried to open a store for 10 years before Harley let him open a store.  If you are a regular customer they know you by name, including the owner.  The salesmen know me, the sales manager knows me, motor clothes know me.  Parts dept knows me, Service director knows me and so on.  Since he opened that store, he has opened two more dealerships, 3 tee shirt shops and a used bike store.

Main store, has a bar and Smoke house on the property.  Also does concerts on Saturday nights.  Owner is a rider and damn good one at that, Sales Staff ride, mechanics ride, parts ride and some of motor clothes ride.

I would say Smokey Mountain Harley and its staff is a lot of why I still am on a Harley especially after my 15 that needed a new motor at 2 years old.

Dealer is very involved with riding.  They have a dealer lead ride every week.  They put on lots of riding events.
Happy for you, seriously. All that really matters is that your having a good time and feel positive about your dealer relationship.

We all have different expectations and points of reference. Mine should not matter to you or anyone for that matter.

Enjoy the ride

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T-Roy

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2019, 08:00:35 AM »

Evidence of a Liquid Cooled frame mounted fairing Indian coming.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #84 on: April 15, 2019, 08:07:16 AM »

More Evidence. Note: I copied all of this evidence from the Indian Owner's forum.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #85 on: April 15, 2019, 08:07:53 AM »

One more
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #86 on: April 15, 2019, 08:32:33 AM »

That Indian is very interesting. One of BMW Motorrad's top designer's went to work for Indian after helping with the K1600 B or bagger.

Smart move, hire experienced, successful motorcycle designers to create a totally new model. Indian is serious competition for Harley and the motorcycle industry in general.

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charles05663

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #87 on: April 15, 2019, 10:50:57 AM »

More Evidence. Note: I copied all of this evidence from the Indian Owner's forum.

That almost looks like a Road Glide fairing.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2019, 10:57:20 AM »

Evidence of a Liquid Cooled frame mounted fairing Indian coming.

I can also see Indian allowing "leaks" of their future products.  HD riders for years have been wanting a full liquid cooled engine.  This give HD rider something to look forward to.

I guess the changes in environmental laws are drive the changes, at least at Indian.
 :oops: :nixweiss:
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2019, 01:33:47 PM »

I can also see Indian allowing "leaks" of their future products.  HD riders for years have been wanting a full liquid cooled engine.  This give HD rider something to look forward to.

I guess the changes in environmental laws are drive the changes, at least at Indian.
 :oops: :nixweiss:
You can still epa certify an air cooled engine, that said, it takes water cooling to achieve higher levels of performance along with reliability. Many of todays buyers complain about engine heat as well.

Hopefully Harley invest in a water cooled touring bike with competitive performance and features.....at a competitive price.

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2019, 02:10:02 PM »

You can still epa certify an air cooled engine, that said, it takes water cooling to achieve higher levels of performance along with reliability. Many of todays buyers complain about engine heat as well.

Hopefully Harley invest in a water cooled touring bike with competitive performance and features.....at a competitive price.

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I was really thinking that the European EPA are driving the emission standards.  As everyone looks to expand their markets it benefits the manufactures to have a single standard engine.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2019, 03:57:17 PM »

I was really thinking that the European EPA are driving the emission standards.  As everyone looks to expand their markets it benefits the manufactures to have a single standard engine.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
The EU5 standards take effect Jan. 1 2020 for new model motorcycles. Jan 1 2021 for carry over models. Most Harleys will fall into the 2021 category.

The 5 standards are significantly more stringent than the 4.

Harley will be able to meet EU5 with current engines, the issue in my opinion will be Stage kits.

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owl893

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2019, 05:06:00 AM »

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2019, 10:03:58 AM »

OWL I hope this is not your opinion, if it is you might need some new medication  ;D

BigLew
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2019, 10:07:50 AM »

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL
There are some legitimate concerns with your 1 thru 6 list.  Take # 6 for example, We've seen a trend of long-time, locally owned HD dealerships sold to car dealer conglomerates.  First thing they do is run off all the long-time employees by lowering wages, reducing benefits, changing working conditions, and bringing a "car sales mentality" to the shop.  They wind up hiring employees that don't know HDs or even motorcycles in general.  This has taken the personal relationship out of the shop - so hanging out at the dealer is now akin to lurking around a Buick dealership.     
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RivRaptor

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2019, 11:17:13 AM »

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL


Agreed
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2019, 11:19:49 AM »

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL
It's obvious Owl you haven't been around Harley long. Not ment as a put down, otherwise you would understand where many are coming from.

We're not wishing for Harley's failure, we're hoping for a correction.

By the way, other brands are not copying Harley, generally they are building bikes with superior engineering. Harley's most valuable asset is it's loyal customer base, large dealer network and brand. We're just asking for competitive bikes to be added to the list along with returning to the most popular ways of the old time shops.

I realize this makes me a dinosaur. Harley has made it clear that there top priority is developing a new generation of riders starting with electric scooters and motorcycles.

Will always like Harleys and wish them the best. 


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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2019, 11:24:05 AM »

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL
I agree, sometimes this site makes me crazy.   It's the grass is always greener principle...    :nixweiss:
Many will also say that Harley is not "innovative" and that they are "falling behind" and yet they have not owned or ridden a modern Harley.     
If they weren't amazing motorcycles then Indian wouldn't be spending so much money imitating them!   Look at the new Chieftain Fairing (Streetglide) Their new Chieftain saddlebags (Harley Rushmore Touring) and the new Spy Photos of Indians 2020 Fixed Fairing Bike (Roadglide)
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2019, 11:25:53 AM »

There are some legitimate concerns with your 1 thru 6 list.  Take # 6 for example, We've seen a trend of long-time, locally owned HD dealerships sold to car dealer conglomerates.  First thing they do is run off all the long-time employees by lowering wages, reducing benefits, changing working conditions, and bringing a "car sales mentality" to the shop.  They wind up hiring employees that don't know HDs or even motorcycles in general.  This has taken the personal relationship out of the shop - so hanging out at the dealer is now akin to lurking around a Buick dealership.   
Bingo! A local dealer i know recently sold to a KIA car dealer. They now have balloons tied to bikes outside, streamers, no money down signs and a bunch of 20 something sales folks playing biker dress up. I stopped and chatted with them, it was all about payments. They have no clue. No thanks.

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Ironhorse

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2019, 11:28:01 AM »

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL

That's one way to spin it.

I like HD, they just need to improve to keep up with the competition. Indian is getting ready to release a water cooled motor and a fixed fairing frame. I'm glad to see it, hopefully it will push HD to similar action. Shouldn't be too hard for their engineers to package the V-Rod engine into a touring frame.
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Ironhorse

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2019, 11:31:02 AM »

They now have balloons tied to bikes outside, streamers, no money down signs and a bunch of 20 something sales folks playing biker dress up.

Damn,....

I'm sure the service department is a bunch of 1st year MMA grads used to working on Japanese bikes earning minimum wage.
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #101 on: April 16, 2019, 11:33:40 AM »

I agree, sometimes this site makes me crazy.   It's the grass is always greener principle...    :nixweiss:
Many will also say that Harley is not "innovative" and that they are "falling behind" and yet they have not owned or ridden a modern Harley.     
If they weren't amazing motorcycles then Indian wouldn't be spending so much money imitating them!   Look at the new Chieftain Fairing (Streetglide) Their new Chieftain saddlebags (Harley Rushmore Touring) and the new Spy Photos of Indians 2020 Fixed Fairing Bike (Roadglide)
Your absolutely correct about Indian styling. That's where it ends, the new Indians have a far superior frame and suspension. The coming indian shark will have a powerful water cooled motor in addition to the superior frame.

Personally i would not buy one, it's Polaris to me. Harley is the real deal. Hopefully Harley builds a competitive bike.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

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iski

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2019, 11:39:39 AM »

It's obvious Owl you haven't been around Harley long. Not ment as a put down, otherwise you would understand where many are coming from.

We're not wishing for Harley's failure, we're hoping for a correction.

By the way, other brands are not copying Harley, generally they are building bikes with superior engineering. Harley's most valuable asset is it's loyal customer base, large dealer network and brand. We're just asking for competitive bikes to be added to the list along with returning to the most popular ways of the old time shops.

I realize this makes me a dinosaur. Harley has made it clear that there top priority is developing a new generation of riders starting with electric scooters and motorcycles.

Will always like Harleys and wish them the best. 


Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Well said.  Part of it is nostalgia - remembering those 60s & 70s Harleys I saw as a young whippersnapper, when I could not afford to buy one even if I wanted to.   Everyone has different things that drive their buying decisions - buy new, buy used, buy for economy, for style, for comfort, for convenience - dozens of reasons & for each of us these reasons are weighted differently. We each see things through our own perceptions of those things.

When some of us see a brand we like (in this case HD) that appears to be letting the wheels fall off, we tend to bitch and moan.  Meanwhile, HD makes MCs regardless and they should be looking 5-10 years into the future and beyond to "guess" (yes that is my official term) what the market will be like then.  Not an easy task.  HD enjoyed a good run of more than a few years of selling everything it could make.  Now they are adjusting, sales are in decline, and competition is as hot as always if not more.  If HD misses that guess by a little or some they will continue to exist.  If they miss that guess by too much, at some point they will be a memory like Vincent or at some point re-imagined like Crocker.  If HD guesses right then they will continue on.  My hope is for the latter.

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mrmagloo

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2019, 04:23:55 PM »

Glad the dealership I use is not as you describe.  Yes, its a new mega store, opened in Sept 2004.  Not a Car company owner.

Owner is a business man who tried to open a store for 10 years before Harley let him open a store.  If you are a regular customer they know you by name, including the owner.  The salesmen know me, the sales manager knows me, motor clothes know me.  Parts dept knows me, Service director knows me and so on.  Since he opened that store, he has opened two more dealerships, 3 tee shirt shops and a used bike store.

Main store, has a bar and Smoke house on the property.  Also does concerts on Saturday nights.  Owner is a rider and damn good one at that, Sales Staff ride, mechanics ride, parts ride and some of motor clothes ride.

I would say Smokey Mountain Harley and its staff is a lot of why I still am on a Harley especially after my 15 that needed a new motor at 2 years old.

Dealer is very involved with riding.  They have a dealer lead ride every week.  They put on lots of riding events.

I've been to SMH in Maryville a couple of times which is where my buddies and I from across the country have met up to start our Dragon/Moonshiner/BRP rides.  That location was definitely an exception to what we are experiencing here in the Chicago area.
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fastfreddy

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2019, 06:12:49 PM »

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL
was just over at the BMW forum and let them know what an amazing bike they all have.. and to get their kids back in their yard  :nixweiss:
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2019, 06:45:07 PM »

was just over at the BMW forum and let them know what an amazing bike they all have.. and to get their kids back in their yard  :nixweiss:
Believe it or not, the number one bike BMW K1600 B or bagger owners own or traded is a Harley. Generally we all treat Harley with respect and accept the differences as simply what is.

Many still own a Harley, many hope to buy another like myself.  Generally we respect and like most bikes and those that ride.



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fastfreddy

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2019, 09:19:14 PM »

 believe it or not I own a BMW, its an amazing vehicle  :o …. 328xi...………. but im not going to sit here and beat on my chest cause I own a BMW   :nixweiss: and I traded a ford for it  ???
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 09:35:46 PM by fastfreddy »
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owl893

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #107 on: April 17, 2019, 04:22:58 AM »

It's obvious Owl you haven't been around Harley long. Not ment as a put down, otherwise you would understand where many are coming from.

We're not wishing for Harley's failure, we're hoping for a correction.

By the way, other brands are not copying Harley, generally they are building bikes with superior engineering. Harley's most valuable asset is it's loyal customer base, large dealer network and brand. We're just asking for competitive bikes to be added to the list along with returning to the most popular ways of the old time shops.

I realize this makes me a dinosaur. Harley has made it clear that there top priority is developing a new generation of riders starting with electric scooters and motorcycles.

Will always like Harleys and wish them the best. 


Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

scottt, does 54 years on HD count as "long"?  and Lew you need to look up "sarcasm", you actually used it when referencing my medications, which by the way, do not include any hallucinogens. You might notice that several members agreed with my post which was meant to show the hyperbole displayed in this thread.  You may also notice that early in this discussion I agreed with your original post scottt, but as things progressed, this became very one sided.  I acknowledge there are equal or better choices than Harley Davidson, and I agree that the MC should listen, and the single loudest message you can send them is to buy someone else's product. But we are HERE, and in this house discussion, albeit multi faceted, usually doesn't include "trashing" our own brand. However, if that is the way you really feel, make the move, say goodbye, and "we will always like you and wish you the best."

OWL
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Phreakyz

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #108 on: April 17, 2019, 06:37:32 AM »

scottt, does 54 years on HD count as "long"?  and Lew you need to look up "sarcasm", you actually used it when referencing my medications, which by the way, do not include any hallucinogens. You might notice that several members agreed with my post which was meant to show the hyperbole displayed in this thread.  You may also notice that early in this discussion I agreed with your original post scottt, but as things progressed, this became very one sided.  I acknowledge there are equal or better choices than Harley Davidson, and I agree that the MC should listen, and the single loudest message you can send them is to buy someone else's product. But we are HERE, and in this house discussion, albeit multi faceted, usually doesn't include "trashing" our own brand. However, if that is the way you really feel, make the move, say goodbye, and "we will always like you and wish you the best."

OWL

Well Said.
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ultra13

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #109 on: April 17, 2019, 08:32:12 AM »

I agree Phreakyz. There are imitators (other brands) out there that want what H/D has. I have friends that own other brands and take off the stickers and emblems off their bikes and install Harley fairings and bags on them. That speaks volumes to me.
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HOGMIKE

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #110 on: April 17, 2019, 11:18:43 AM »

As a consumer I have the option of choosing whatever bike suits my fancy.
I will keep most of my Harleys but will make room for a new 1600 bmw and/or the new water cooled Indian. I’ve ridden the bmw but will wait for the Indian

Until Harley and their dealer network steps up their customer service program I will go where I feel I am more valued than just a number.
I am tired and frustrated with the attitude that I am at fault with issues on the newer bikes.
I expect courtesy and respect and knowledge from the “experts” at the dealerships.
Knowledge is the key word here! Seems to be lacking at a lot of dealerships I visit.
Note to sales staff and service staff: “Do what you say you’re going to do the first time”.
 :soapbox:
JMHO
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scottt

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #111 on: April 17, 2019, 11:47:22 AM »

scottt, does 54 years on HD count as "long"?  and Lew you need to look up "sarcasm", you actually used it when referencing my medications, which by the way, do not include any hallucinogens. You might notice that several members agreed with my post which was meant to show the hyperbole displayed in this thread.  You may also notice that early in this discussion I agreed with your original post scottt, but as things progressed, this became very one sided.  I acknowledge there are equal or better choices than Harley Davidson, and I agree that the MC should listen, and the single loudest message you can send them is to buy someone else's product. But we are HERE, and in this house discussion, albeit multi faceted, usually doesn't include "trashing" our own brand. However, if that is the way you really feel, make the move, say goodbye, and "we will always like you and wish you the best."

OWL
Owl; my apologise, 54 years is a long stretch. At the end od the day, if your happy with Harley, that's all that matters.

Admittedly i became dissolutions with some aspects.

I did move on to some degree and bought the new BMW K1600 B or bagger. First new non Harley since 1989.

Nuff said. No longer care what anybody rides and find many to be interesting bikes. Would like to pick-up another CVO but this time it will be a older used Harley. 

Enjoy!

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owl893

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #112 on: April 17, 2019, 12:12:54 PM »

Apology accepted scottt, thank you for being a gentleman.  Your views are widely accepted, hopefully HD will listen.  My generation is shrinking, yours is not and HOGMIKE speaks with the voice of a choir, we have seen the future and we won't accept anything less.

OWL

ride it, what ever it is, just ride...……………………...
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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #113 on: April 17, 2019, 03:10:56 PM »

I've been riding Harleys for about 50 years and I joined this forum in 2003.  I got my first CVO just a few months after joining this forum and became a moderator then.

Having said that.....that BMW B is one hell of a motorcycle!    Jusayinzall

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HOGMIKE

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #114 on: April 17, 2019, 05:56:13 PM »

As we get older we are not comfortable with change. It was a nicer time we remember 40-50 yrs ago. The newer generations do not know history at all. Internet and George Orwell have taken over, the people making laws today have totally lost all civility and push what THEY think is good for everyone. I’m not good with that. I don’t want some 29 yr old lawmaker telling me what I want and that if I follow in lock step it will be provided for me.

I started on motorcycles in 1961 and my first Harley was a 1965 FLH in 1970. I still have that bike and ride it occasionally. I’m one of the younger members in our “geezer” riders club and one of the older members in the B.I.O. riders. We ride Harley’s, Indians, Triumphs , Vespa, BMW, etc etc. BUT, we ride.
Our current ride leader is a few yrs older than me and rides a 61FL that he purchased new.
He is shooting for 350000 soon.

There are a lot of pretty intelligent people here on the forum with many years experience working and riding on Harleys. Some of you older fellows minds get to wandering (I’m almost there!) but keep up the “out loud” thinking, and if a mistake is made, it’s just that, a mistake.
As my friend would say “suck it up buttercup”

Thanks to the many: Bruce, all 3 Steves, Ron, etc etc. lots of good info here. Thanks to all the people who keep this forum running.

Gotta go pick up my rod (for my old age)!
 :soapbox:

JMHO as usual.


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HOGMIKE

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Re: Open letter to Harley Davidson
« Reply #115 on: April 17, 2019, 05:57:53 PM »

BTW, if this needs to be moved,  I may have gotten off topic a bit.
 8)
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