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Author Topic: 2020  (Read 5205 times)

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Heatwave

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Re: 2020
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2019, 08:18:49 AM »

Finally saw the blue CVO Limited in person this past weekend and WOW, What a disappointment!  Whatever that aluminum-Ish finish is looks way worse in person.  There was a denim black and silver limited sitting next to it and to me it looked way batter than the over-priced CVO! Im sure they’ll sell them but if they were priced the same, There is no way I’d pick the CVO much less pay a premium for it.  No offense to anyone that has purchased one...just my opinion.

I agree with your assessment of the blue 2020 CVO Limited. Lots of small brackets and exhaust tip are chrome. While the larger exhaust, heads, TP rack and tank bezel are satin silver.

To my eye it looks cobbled together to save money on chrome plating. I don’t want to offend anyone but it just looks cheap. Just another attempt to save money by replacing chrome with paint. It just looks too much like rattle-can satin silver spray paint to me.

Can’t imagine how shabby and dinged up that paint will look in a few short years compared to the much harder chrome plating. Chrome was used in those areas for a reason. Because exhaust, TP rack, tank bezel and heads get abuse from heat, road dirt and use. That paint will simply never hold up like chrome.

With all the other things they have taken from the CVOs while raising prices, I’m afraid this is just not going to end well for the MoCo.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 08:26:32 AM by Heatwave »
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GB506

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Re: 2020
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2019, 08:47:46 AM »

To my eye it looks cobbled together to save money on chrome plating. I don’t want to offend anyone but it just looks cheap. Just another attempt to save money by replacing chrome with paint. It just looks too much like rattle-can satin silver spray paint to me.

Can’t imagine how shabby and dinged up that paint will look in a few short years compared to the much harder chrome plating. Chrome was used in those areas for a reason. Because exhaust, TP rack, tank bezel and heads get abuse from heat, road dirt and use. That paint will simply never hold up like chrome.

With all the other things they have taken from the CVOs while raising prices, I’m afraid this is just not going to end well for the MoCo.

I haven't seen this bike in person yet, but while your assessment regarding the durability of the satin finish may be correct, it may not be, either, and time will tell which is true.

Regarding the look, based on the pictures, I think it looks interesting, and I much prefer the satin to the black or the black chrome H-D has been using elsewhere.

It seems to me that whoever is designing these bikes lately is interested in expanding the definition of what H-D bikes are from a design language perspective. Attempting to get out of the same old paint/chrome (and more chrome and more chrome) lane they've been in for decades. While I'm personally a fan of chrome, it's important to try new things and I respect the effort being made.

I'd never buy a black chrome H-D, but if the Sand Dune CVO Limited were chrome instead of black, I'd buy it today. I might still buy it if it were offered in satin like the blue one.
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Haird

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Re: 2020
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2019, 09:17:03 AM »

I like chrome...

However, some of the newer finishes do look good depending on the bike color.  The '12 Skunk combo did and still does look very nice with the blacked out trim (although the exhaust is still chrome stock...I've seen the black chrome on it and that looks very nice with that color combo).

While they look good in the showroom and may continue to look good for those that ride their bikes from bar to bar OR house to Harley shop and back home with the occasional toy run thrown in, the folks that actually buy them to ride may have issues.  I know the shiny black trim on the Skunks and others do not hold up as well with all the heat (they can cloud up) and I would really hate to be faced with cleaning baked on bug guts and tar nips off anything but chrome pipes.  If you have ridden through a bug cloud and then had to clean that front header pipe, you know what I mean

Again, it's a current fad in the automotive and bike world and if that's what you like, this is definitely your time to buy.
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Heatwave

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Re: 2020
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2019, 09:45:45 AM »

I haven't seen this bike in person yet, but while your assessment regarding the durability of the satin finish may be correct, it may not be, either, and time will tell which is true.

Regarding the look, based on the pictures, I think it looks interesting, and I much prefer the satin to the black or the black chrome H-D has been using elsewhere.

It seems to me that whoever is designing these bikes lately is interested in expanding the definition of what H-D bikes are from a design language perspective. Attempting to get out of the same old paint/chrome (and more chrome and more chrome) lane they've been in for decades. While I'm personally a fan of chrome, it's important to try new things and I respect the effort being made.

I'd never buy a black chrome H-D, but if the Sand Dune CVO Limited were chrome instead of black, I'd buy it today. I might still buy it if it were offered in satin like the blue one.

It might be just a coincidence but I don't think so. Harley had 20 years of annual growth from the late 90's to around 2014. Every year and almost every qtr compared to the same qtr a year before. Then the current CEO was put in power about the same time sales turned south. The launch of the M8 occurred in the Fall of 2016. Every year since 2015 has been worse for sales and profit than the prior year. And that's during a booming US economy that has set records for employment and income. Can't even imagine how ugly it could get if we enter an economic recession.

BMW, Honda and even Indian have either grown their business every year since around 2014 or at least not lost ground while Harley falls lower every year.

Is it just a coincidence that the sales have declined under the current leadership with the latest bike designs intended to reduce content and "black out" bikes with less and less chrome? Personally I think the current Company leadership, latest "murdered" bike designs, boring paint graphics, significant price increases and lack of innovation are directly related to HD's 6 straight years of declining sales.

Aging out loyal customers is merely an excuse for bad designs that simply aren't of interest to new riders. More guys turn 40, 50 and 60 yrs old than phase out of motorcycling each year and this should be HD's target audience for selling premium priced motorcycles. Instead they are chasing millenials that have no money in the bank. Based on the current business performance, the current strategy to sell Harleys has failed. IMO, it's time for a new strategy and new leadership.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 09:51:50 AM by Heatwave »
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GB506

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Re: 2020
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2019, 10:12:51 AM »

It might be just a coincidence but I don't think so. Harley had 20 years of annual growth from the late 90's to around 2014. Every year and almost every qtr compared to the same qtr a year before. Then the current CEO was put in power about the same time sales turned south. The launch of the M8 occurred in the Fall of 2016. Every year since 2015 has been worse for sales and profit than the prior year. And that's during a booming US economy that has set records for employment and income. Can't even imagine how ugly it could get if we enter an economic recession.

BMW, Honda and even Indian have either grown their business every year since around 2014 or at least not lost ground while Harley falls lower every year.

Is it just a coincidence that the sales have declined under the current leadership with the latest bike designs intended to reduce content and "black out" bikes with less and less chrome? Personally I think the current Company leadership, latest "murdered" bike designs, boring paint graphics, significant price increases and lack of innovation are directly related to HD's 6 straight years of declining sales.

You could be right. However, at least as it pertains to the US market, another thing is occurring that's probably having a significant impact, as well, and that's the fact that the Boomer generation began entering retirement beginning right around 2011. Those born in 1953/54 or thereabouts are retiring now and are the leading edge of the largest group of boomers, who will hit 65 over the next 6-7 years. Whether retired, retiring, or trying to figure out how to afford to retire, it means significant life changes and less disposable income among the group most attracted to H-D bikes.

H-D should have invested in assisted living, perhaps....
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Heatwave

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Re: 2020
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2019, 11:23:10 AM »

You could be right. However, at least as it pertains to the US market, another thing is occurring that's probably having a significant impact, as well, and that's the fact that the Boomer generation began entering retirement beginning right around 2011. Those born in 1953/54 or thereabouts are retiring now and are the leading edge of the largest group of boomers, who will hit 65 over the next 6-7 years. Whether retired, retiring, or trying to figure out how to afford to retire, it means significant life changes and less disposable income among the group most attracted to H-D bikes.

H-D should have invested in assisted living, perhaps....

Very true but there are far more younger guys coming into their prime income and "time available" years than there are baby boomers retiring. Its not like the younger generations are all just dying off at 40. I don't get the whole excuse about baby boomers retiring. If Harley was making bikes that people wanted to buy at a price they could afford, Harley's would be flying out of the dealerships in this economy.
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GB506

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Re: 2020
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2019, 11:29:44 AM »

Very true but there are far more younger guys coming into their prime income and "time available" years than there are baby boomers retiring. Its not like the younger generations are all just dying off at 40. I don't get the whole excuse about baby boomers retiring. If Harley was making bikes that people wanted to buy at a price they could afford, Harley's would be flying out of the dealerships in this economy.

There were nearly 1,000,000 FEWER births in the US in 1975 vs 1954....
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Heatwave

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Re: 2020
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2019, 12:05:27 PM »

And many millions more that have immigrated to the US. The overall population of the US has more than doubled since the avg baby boomer was born.

There are 75 million baby boomers (1947-65). But 80+ million Millennials  (25-37 yrs old today). There's no US economic or population reasons that can explain the decline in Harley sales, at least in the US. The decline can only be related to some combination of product strategy, quality, pricing and leadership.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 12:22:08 PM by Heatwave »
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RivRaptor

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Re: 2020
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2019, 12:05:57 PM »


Aging out loyal customers is merely an excuse for bad designs that simply aren't of interest to new riders. More guys turn 40, 50 and 60 yrs old than phase out of motorcycling each year and this should be HD's target audience for selling premium priced motorcycles. Instead they are chasing millenials that have no money in the bank. Based on the current business performance, the current strategy to sell Harleys has failed. IMO, it's time for a new strategy and new leadership.

Well said!  Couldn't agree more
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GB506

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Re: 2020
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2019, 12:33:10 PM »

And many millions more that have immigrated to the US. The overall population of the US has more than doubled since the avg baby boomer was born.

There are 75 million baby boomers (1947-65). But 80+ million Millennials  (25-37 yrs old today). There's no US economic or population reasons that can explain the decline in Harley sales, at least in the US. The decline can only be related to some combination of product strategy, quality, pricing and leadership.

If Haitian, Honduran, Somalian and Syrian immigrants bought Harley CVOs, I’d agree with you! LOL.


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Bobs14Limited

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Re: 2020
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2019, 08:36:59 PM »

I too immediately thought of AMF when I first saw the blue one... Must be the graphics and colours.


I wasn't riding M/C's during the AMF/Harley years, so the colors from back then mean nothing to me.
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scottt

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Re: 2020
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2019, 11:28:46 AM »

And many millions more that have immigrated to the US. The overall population of the US has more than doubled since the avg baby boomer was born.

There are 75 million baby boomers (1947-65). But 80+ million Millennials  (25-37 yrs old today). There's no US economic or population reasons that can explain the decline in Harley sales, at least in the US. The decline can only be related to some combination of product strategy, quality, pricing and leadership.
Sadly I agree. Harley rider for 28 years, purchased 12 new Harley's during those years and still like them.

In 2018 I decided to buy a bike. As usual looked hard at the Road Glide, checked out all the features and specs. About the same time BMW came out with the K1600B or Bagger. Took the bike for a test ride and was blown away. The features exceeded a CVO along with performance, ride and handling. Liked the styling too, so I bought one.

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OBB

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Re: 2020
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2019, 10:09:21 PM »

.
Local dealer has one of these in stock (dark grey) and I have to say, It's a damn good looking bike in person. :2vrolijk_21:
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scottt

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Re: 2020
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2019, 01:11:31 AM »

Local dealer has one of these in stock (dark grey) and I have to say, It's a damn good looking bike in person. :2vrolijk_21:
They perform, ride and handle far better than they look. I agree they look good but it's the ride that sold me. Comes down to how you ride and what's most important. If riding freeways is most of what you do, stick with Harley's. If you enjoy two lanes, some highways and freeways as needed, you can't beat the B. The 6cyl is in a class by itself.

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OBB

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Re: 2020
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2019, 07:14:59 AM »

They perform, ride and handle far better than they look. I agree they look good but it's the ride that sold me. Comes down to how you ride and what's most important. If riding freeways is most of what you do, stick with Harley's. If you enjoy two lanes, some highways and freeways as needed, you can't beat the B. The 6cyl is in a class by itself.

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You're starting to remind me of J&M John. Every comment He makes is pushing His stereo equipment while every comment you make is touting your love for BMW, Indian or anything not HD. Yes you've bought "X" new HD over your "X" number of years of riding, good for you. We're happy for you. A more appropriate comment might have been something along the lines of " I do/do not like the new paint/designs  this year.
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