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Author Topic: Article on Brakes  (Read 15042 times)

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Twolanerider

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2007, 12:33:28 PM »

Of course all of this "when will it lock up" wanderings is so cautiously side stepping the mention of the gorilla in the room; or rather the lack of.  Harley has still never seen fit to think that it's riders and consumers are as valuable as does Honda or BMW and offer up a good ABS system.
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Chief

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2007, 12:35:07 PM »

I have practiced panic stops in an empty parking lot 3 times in the past 6 months...at the same time, I practiced swerving manuvers, making slow speed turns.

I guess the point of this discussion about brakes/calipers is that we all know locking up the brakes is the MOST inefficient way to stop, so any improvement in feel and friction between the caliper, pad, and rotor will help a person avoid lock-up, all other things being equal.  So, although I was probably on the verge of locking up the front, if the brakes are more efficient, they will stop the bike quicker with the same amount of pressure, without locking up.

In the PDF file above, running 97mph, and applying the maxium braking pressure, the mass stopped nearly 100 feet sooner with aftermarket calipers than with stock.  That is a LOT of distance not covered in identical situations.  If you add into that whole equation the fact that with the stock HD front forks, they will pretty much be bottomed out, shifting even more of the weight to the front tire, the situation becomes even more unmanageable.  The rear tire/brake then becomes even less effective, and will be more likely to lock up (which is what happened to me in real life, and in the parking lot).

Chief, you are 100% right in saying that we all need to get out more and practice doing this kind of stuff...the more we do so, the more automatic it becomes.  I am convinced that if I had not practiced the very thing I did to avoid eating up the back end of that ladies car, my bike wouldn't look nearly so good right now, not to mention me and Suzanne.  It's Suzanne I'm more concerned about than myself, so whatever I can do to make my bike stop better and handle more effectively with the skills I have (not that I am skilled), is time and money well spent.  It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that some owners spend a lot of time and money getting their bike to go faster in a straight line, and not enough making it stop and go around curves better, which is not simply a matter of riding skill, but characteristics of the bike as well. 

It could and should be argued that I should not have been close enough to the the car in front of me for it to be an issue, but despite our best intentions, chit happens.  I kicked my own a$$ for several minutes after that incident, but it's the unexpected that always bites us, and by definition we cannot prepare ourselves adequately for those situations.  But, one thing I can do is make the bike able to do the best it can do with appropriate input from me.  These certainly are not race bikes, but who here is not guilty of pushing the bike to the limits of it's capability from time to time?  Making it a bit more capable just gives me a little comfort in the back of my mind, especially when I learn it's weaknesses.

How's that for a rationalization to spend a bunch of money on chrome calipers, new rotors, and new front fork cartridges? ;) ;)

You're ahead of me on that one. I've always been a big proponent of practice, but have been real lax about it for awhile. I really need to get back to it.

We won't even open the box of how we SHOULD ride, and how we DO ride. No no no. That is not a good box.

The underlying theme to my post, if ther is one, is we can throw all kinds of stuff at our bikes to make them preform perfect, but usually the weakest link is the rider. I admit I should spend more time perfecting the rider than I do. This discussion has made me think about that... and that is a good thing.

Chief
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Chief

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2007, 12:36:41 PM »

Of course all of this "when will it lock up" wanderings is so cautiously side stepping the mention of the gorilla in the room; or rather the lack of.  Harley has still never seen fit to think that it's riders and consumers are as valuable as does Honda or BMW and offer up a good ABS system.

I'm hoping that will change soon. That would be a good upgrade.
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ESJ JESTER

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2007, 01:02:04 PM »

Of course all of this "when will it lock up" wanderings is so cautiously side stepping the mention of the gorilla in the room; or rather the lack of.  Harley has still never seen fit to think that it's riders and consumers are as valuable as does Honda or BMW and offer up a good ABS system.

   While the value of the riders is in question...I was finishing the 880 metz 200 rubber install on the vtx last nite and after the front wheel  i looked and thought ..wow  8 pistons of squeeze and combined front and rear brake system...110 cid.... 10K vs  40K  .  the cycles are sitting next to each other.  but then i looked down at the toast rear wheel bearings from the honda  that have just 8k miles on them  and the fact that honda dont even care or acknowledge that  thousands of thier riders are on the verge of a bad day.  Most have filed with the national safety board to get them to step up to the pump but its been 5 yrs ongoing.     Slow as it is   Harley Time  often is better than honda time  in my book.    point is  they all have issues.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 02:49:06 PM »

   While the value of the riders is in question...I was finishing the 880 metz 200 rubber install on the vtx last nite and after the front wheel  i looked and thought ..wow  8 pistons of squeeze and combined front and rear brake system...110 cid.... 10K vs  40K  .  the cycles are sitting next to each other.  but then i looked down at the toast rear wheel bearings from the honda  that have just 8k miles on them  and the fact that honda dont even care or acknowledge that  thousands of thier riders are on the verge of a bad day.  Most have filed with the national safety board to get them to step up to the pump but its been 5 yrs ongoing.     Slow as it is   Harley Time  often is better than honda time  in my book.    point is  they all have issues.


Yeah, but it's so uplifting to rag on Harley Davidson.....  They do make it so damned easy.
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altugo

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2007, 04:03:04 PM »

I am confused as hell.I ordered Lyndall reds.Stock calipers.Now forget about all tech talk is it enough?Or should i also buy aftermarket calipers?And if yes wich one?Please guys do this as brake for dummies style just gimme the brand.Lol i know i suck at mechanics and tech :drink:
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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2007, 05:46:45 PM »

Has anyone had any experiences with the new 360 brake?
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Midnight Rider

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2007, 12:36:02 PM »

I am confused as hell.I ordered Lyndall reds.Stock calipers.Now forget about all tech talk is it enough?Or should i also buy aftermarket calipers?And if yes wich one?Please guys do this as brake for dummies style just gimme the brand.Lol i know i suck at mechanics and tech :drink:

I'm no expert in the field, but you will notice a big difference just by changing to the Lyndall pads.  If a person wanted to go the extra step, and put on some good calipers, they could not go wrong with Brembo, Performance Machine, or Hawg Halters, just to name three good ones.  The Brembo's take a couple of brackets to install them on the front forks, as they are not a direct bolt on replacement like some of the others.  Basically, you're looking for a differential bore caliper (smaller piston on the leading side and a larger piston on the leaving side of the rotor...this makes for more even pad wear, and more even surface pressure across the face of the pad).
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Midnight Rider

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2007, 12:48:52 PM »

Of course all of this "when will it lock up" wanderings is so cautiously side stepping the mention of the gorilla in the room; or rather the lack of.  Harley has still never seen fit to think that it's riders and consumers are as valuable as does Honda or BMW and offer up a good ABS system.

Had never ridden a bike with ABS prior to last Friday when I was able to get on the Gold Wing.  The difference is simply amazing.  For HD not to have come up with a smaller version of ABS than the one offered up for the police bikes, is in a word, disgraceful.  Hauling down 1300 lbs of motorcycle and rider with what really amounts to a POS, antiquated braking system approaches negligence, IMO.  All HD can do is offer us up a chrome version of the aluminum bricks they call calipers.  At the very least, they could offer up better pads.   :soapbox:
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Sometimes it takes a whole tankful of fuel before you can think straight.
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Gone, but not forgotten...2011 FLTRUSE with
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harleydiva

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2007, 03:36:11 PM »

I have practiced panic stops in an empty parking lot 3 times in the past 6 months...at the same time, I practiced swerving manuvers, making slow speed turns.

I guess the point of this discussion about brakes/calipers is that we all know locking up the brakes is the MOST inefficient way to stop, so any improvement in feel and friction between the caliper, pad, and rotor will help a person avoid lock-up, all other things being equal.  So, although I was probably on the verge of locking up the front, if the brakes are more efficient, they will stop the bike quicker with the same amount of pressure, without locking up.

In the PDF file above, running 97mph, and applying the maxium braking pressure, the mass stopped nearly 100 feet sooner with aftermarket calipers than with stock.  That is a LOT of distance not covered in identical situations.  If you add into that whole equation the fact that with the stock HD front forks, they will pretty much be bottomed out, shifting even more of the weight to the front tire, the situation becomes even more unmanageable.  The rear tire/brake then becomes even less effective, and will be more likely to lock up (which is what happened to me in real life, and in the parking lot).

Chief, you are 100% right in saying that we all need to get out more and practice doing this kind of stuff...the more we do so, the more automatic it becomes.  I am convinced that if I had not practiced the very thing I did to avoid eating up the back end of that ladies car, my bike wouldn't look nearly so good right now, not to mention me and Suzanne.  It's Suzanne I'm more concerned about than myself, so whatever I can do to make my bike stop better and handle more effectively with the skills I have (not that I am skilled), is time and money well spent.  It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that some owners spend a lot of time and money getting their bike to go faster in a straight line, and not enough making it stop and go around curves better, which is not simply a matter of riding skill, but characteristics of the bike as well. 

It could and should be argued that I should not have been close enough to the the car in front of me for it to be an issue, but despite our best intentions, chit happens.  I kicked my own a$$ for several minutes after that incident, but it's the unexpected that always bites us, and by definition we cannot prepare ourselves adequately for those situations.  But, one thing I can do is make the bike able to do the best it can do with appropriate input from me.  These certainly are not race bikes, but who here is not guilty of pushing the bike to the limits of it's capability from time to time?  Making it a bit more capable just gives me a little comfort in the back of my mind, especially when I learn it's weaknesses.

How's that for a rationalization to spend a bunch of money on chrome calipers, new rotors, and new front fork cartridges? ;) ;)

I Love the way you guys rationalize ... kind of how I rationalize when I need a new pair of boots.   ;)
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Twolanerider

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2007, 09:44:54 PM »

Had never ridden a bike with ABS prior to last Friday when I was able to get on the Gold Wing.  The difference is simply amazing.  For HD not to have come up with a smaller version of ABS than the one offered up for the police bikes, is in a word, disgraceful.  Hauling down 1300 lbs of motorcycle and rider with what really amounts to a POS, antiquated braking system approaches negligence, IMO.  All HD can do is offer us up a chrome version of the aluminum bricks they call calipers.  At the very least, they could offer up better pads.   :soapbox:

That was a cool thing about those pads.  The first time I stomped on it HARD I got the ABS to run a couple of cycles.  No big deal.  With the other pads he had us playing with I stomped on it just as hard, at just as fast a speed.  It stopped quicker and did it w/o needing the ABS.  That was pretty cool.  For those "oh chit" moments though, when all you have time to do is squeeze and stomp NOW; nothing will do for us what ABS would.
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IronButt

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2007, 01:16:35 AM »

Yes I read it all 100%.

Yes I getting new brakes.
Yes when the new brakes are on, I am going to school to learn how to use them.

Thanks again, all of yall is why I joined this site. Good work and thanks again!  :2vrolijk_21:

PS I am still getting my 900 watt stereo  ;D I am sure someone will help me figure a way to justify it  ::)
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Twolanerider

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2007, 01:56:43 AM »



Yes I getting new brakes.




Which one's you gettin'? 

No secrets here.......  ::)
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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2007, 02:25:01 AM »


Which one's you gettin'? 

No secrets here.......  ::)
Hi Don,
PERFORMANCE MACHINE 6 PISTON DIFFERENTIAL BORE CALIPER
These are the ones with the different sized pistons for leading and trailing edges. Getting the floating rotors also.
I added this to my Work in progress list.

I try not to follow too closebut I have had several panic stops. Baggers dont do that flat track slide too well..

A close freind ate it last year. Plenty of 120' skid marks but 1" short would have been  enough.

TTYL,
STEVEN
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Twolanerider

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Re: Article on Brakes
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2007, 02:36:21 AM »

Hi Don,
PERFORMANCE MACHINE 6 PISTON DIFFERENTIAL BORE CALIPER
These are the ones with the different sized pistons for leading and trailing edges. Getting the floating rotors also.
I added this to my Work in progress list.

I try not to follow too closebut I have had several panic stops. Baggers dont do that flat track slide too well..

A close freind ate it last year. Plenty of 120' skid marks but 1" short would have been  enough.

TTYL,
STEVEN


Amen to that Steven, amen to that.  Remember swapping words with TC not too long ago reading some brake research or white paper or something.  Good calipers and good pads really do make a heluva difference.  But whether it's 10' or a 100' it just might be the difference between sitting there giving the bird to the jackass that pulled out in front of you or doing an endo over the handlebars because you didn't get stopped in time.  Every little bit might just save your ass.
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