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Author Topic: Lifters (I know)  (Read 2115 times)

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kevin_n

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Lifters (I know)
« on: October 08, 2020, 08:39:43 PM »

My 16 has 18,xxx miles on it. I am thinking of having the lifters replaced. I talked to my Indy about it and he thinks there really isn't a need for it, but he will change them if I want him to. So I am unsure what I want to do. I have read a few of the past threads and some people change them for piece of mind and other because they have to.

I use to have the cold start tick but I switched to royal purple oil two years ago and the cold start tick is gone, there is no noise at all, ever. Should I spend the money to replace them or just wait? He uses fueling lifters in his builds and that's what would go in. If I have them replaced will it be good or is this something that will need to be done every 20k or so? Just not sure what path I want to take.

Thanks
Kevin
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timo482

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2020, 09:05:44 PM »

just change the lifters, its pretty cheap and then its done.. if you pull the tank and covers the whole cost is less than 200 ... well i did my own labor. its pretty easy actually.  lots of folks still say not to do it - then you get to do a whole engine when they fail.
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spence

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2020, 06:47:46 AM »

When I had my 16 CVO Limited the lifters went at 20k and then 36k, traded in at 52k but probably would have needed them soon again because the Harley lifters in the 110's are junk, had the extended warranty so only cost 50 bucks.  So I would change them and if doing yourself put S&S in there and be done with it.
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2020, 09:23:05 AM »

My 16 has 18,xxx miles on it. I am thinking of having the lifters replaced. I talked to my Indy about it and he thinks there really isn't a need for it, but he will change them if I want him to. So I am unsure what I want to do. I have read a few of the past threads and some people change them for piece of mind and other because they have to.

I use to have the cold start tick but I switched to royal purple oil two years ago and the cold start tick is gone, there is no noise at all, ever. Should I spend the money to replace them or just wait? He uses fueling lifters in his builds and that's what would go in. If I have them replaced will it be good or is this something that will need to be done every 20k or so? Just not sure what path I want to take.

Thanks
Kevin
I suggest you get in touch with Bob Thoma, Razorback Performance, 715.985.2236
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fastfreddy

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2020, 05:43:30 PM »

i have changed mine twice now on my 16, 52k miles. its easy an easy task, i reused stock push rods and gaskets both times (got lucky and no leaks yet) takes about 3 hours for me. im a rookie and you tube makes it a no brainer
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mslcpa

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2020, 02:34:44 PM »

Stock lifter failed at 24K on 2010 FLHXSE and replaced, with necessary repairs due to failure, under warranty. Replaced at 44K with S&S lifters and adjustable pushrods. Replaced again at 69K and will do so each 24K as long as I have the bike. Relatively cheap preventative maintenance.
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lowflight

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2020, 06:26:57 PM »

If it was mine they would have already been changed. You are taking a chance running them and it really doesn't cost that much compared to an engine.
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Timbuck2

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2020, 11:37:38 PM »

If it was mine they would have already been changed. You are taking a chance running them and it really doesn't cost that much compared to an engine.

+1
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kevin_n

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2020, 09:10:23 PM »

Dropping the bike off Friday to have the lifters changed out.
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longlast

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2020, 08:53:28 AM »

Dropping the bike off Friday to have the lifters changed out.

Curious,....changed out with what?

I'm no expert compared to others on here, but it's my understanding that it's not so much the lifters that fail due to poor quality of lifter but a combination of heavy valve springs in the 110 motor plus the 255 cams that have aggressive  lobes that do the lifters in.
 I've read about the stock cams being removed and a bolt in cam set with less aggressive lobes installed that deliver good performance and saves on continuous lifter replacement.
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kevin_n

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2020, 10:28:18 AM »

This time it's just lifters and push rods. I'm thinking of changing the cam in the future just not now.
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ultra13

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2020, 10:42:57 AM »

Replaced mine at 20,000 on my 13'. As also did my own with S&S. Very happy and quieter. While your in there replace the oil breather filters.... Money ahead..
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timo482

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2020, 07:19:17 PM »

on a stock bike - any cam change requires a tune.. that's 500 bux.

so whatever cost for the cam and work - add the cost of a tune.

the 255 cam is THE BEST under 75mph.. if you ride at speeds higher than that - there are better cams.

i run a 255 cam.. its great - and ill change the lifters every 20 k or less
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vtwinjim

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2020, 11:51:40 AM »

Lifters and cams replaced under ESP at 22,000 miles.
Motor rebuilt under ESP at around 25,000.

I just changed out my lifters and added adjustable push rods at 45,000. Bike was running great; just didn't trust the lifters.
Sure enough, one lifter was just starting to go out. Roller had excess movement. Probably needle bearings in roller going bad. Who knows how much damage would have occurred if I waited until I started to hear noise.

Changing the lifters every 25,000 miles or so is just like buying insurance. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

You're making the wise choice.
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lowflight

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2020, 02:44:31 PM »

The 110 is very well known for it's lifter issue. As I read about this problem for years I have listened to the folks that do lots of engines, and work on them almost everyday. It is a combination of things, so when the time comes do yourself a favor and address that combination: Oiling, Lifters, Cam Ramp, Valve Spring pressure.

I have done a few like this and I like the results. As far as the oiling is concerned, put in a good cam plate and oil pump. Personally I like S&S the plate allows for better oiling overall and you will also notice a difference on your oil pressure. The other stuff, everybody likes what they like and there are lots of good products.

Good Luck
 
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ultra13

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2020, 03:36:03 PM »

P.S.  Don't forget your rocker lockers.... ;D
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2020, 03:41:58 PM »

There seems to be a pervasive idea that the stock oem cam plate  oil pump, and tensioner need to be replaced.  I am not onboard for most builds.  The stock breather system can only handle so much so where does this added volume end up? A 3 stage pump is an upgrade but if it were my money on all but the highest end builds I would inspect and run stock parts.
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kevin_n

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2020, 06:47:17 PM »

Just lifters and push rods. He said he will inspect everything while he is in there. I forgot about rocker lockers, maybe next time.
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sadunbar

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2020, 08:42:06 PM »

Curious,....changed out with what?

I'm no expert compared to others on here, but it's my understanding that it's not so much the lifters that fail due to poor quality of lifter but a combination of heavy valve springs in the 110 motor plus the 255 cams that have aggressive  lobes that do the lifters in.
 I've read about the stock cams being removed and a bolt in cam set with less aggressive lobes installed that deliver good performance and saves on continuous lifter replacement.

My experience has been that regardless of cam or lifters, I end up having to replace lifters on a regular schedule...
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longlast

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2020, 10:32:09 PM »

My experience has been that regardless of cam or lifters, I end up having to replace lifters on a regular schedule...

??,....what's your regular schedule?

What make do you use?
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sadunbar

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2020, 03:54:19 PM »

??,....what's your regular schedule?

What make do you use?

I typically use this bike for long trips.  Not to much local riding with it.  "Long trip" generally means 6,500/8,500 miles or so typically in the Rocky Mountains, two up pulling a Bushtec...  I start with new lifters and generally have lifter noise at start up by the end of the trip.  I have reduced valve spring pressure, installed a S&S camplate/oil pump, and run a relatively mild cam with gentle ramps and reasonable lift...  I've used about every brand lifter made, all with very similar results.  To answer your question, I change lifters about every 6,000 to 8,000 miles.  About every other oil change.  Which is ridiculous...
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2020, 01:42:14 PM »

So upon changing them have you disassembled them for a forensic analysis? Do you think the piston jet(s) may be leaking, stuck open. This might explain the first start ticking. Not doubting your abilities just saying this sucks and thinking a little outside the box looking for a solution.
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sadunbar

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2020, 08:13:08 PM »

So upon changing them have you disassembled them for a forensic analysis? Do you think the piston jet(s) may be leaking, stuck open. This might explain the first start ticking. Not doubting your abilities just saying this sucks and thinking a little outside the box looking for a solution.

I checked the piston jets for both leaking and function early one and found them working as intended.  I even removed the 110 and installed a 120 and have the very same lifter life.  Something inherent to the basic design, I imagine Harley likely knows the answer....  It would just be to expensive to them to admit...
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Ron_Derheim

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2020, 11:57:34 AM »

Hello all. I have a 16 CVO Street with 16k miles and I just shredded a lifter and caused a bunch of damage in the case. Pretty sure it's not under warranty I'm not the original owner. Does anybody know how many needles are in a lifter bearing? I'm trying to account for the missing pieces. Any help would be awesome. Thank you
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2020, 12:23:49 PM »

Pull the sump plug and flush, they will come out. You have bigger issues and the whole system needs to be flushed, a major teardown, in my opinion
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Twolanerider

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2020, 01:34:22 PM »

Hello all. I have a 16 CVO Street with 16k miles and I just shredded a lifter and caused a bunch of damage in the case. Pretty sure it's not under warranty I'm not the original owner. Does anybody know how many needles are in a lifter bearing? I'm trying to account for the missing pieces. Any help would be awesome. Thank you


Tracking big pieces out the sump is an trip not worth making.  For every big piece you find there will be many small or smaller that you won't see or find that will continue doing damage.  With that damage it's time to break the system open from oil cooler to oil pan.
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timo482

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2020, 06:25:03 PM »

and this is why i changed lifters, pretty cheap, pretty easy... i took the tank off route so i have 99% stock everything. when i hit 50k, ill change them again

to
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kevin_n

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2020, 11:10:07 PM »

That sucks. When I picked mine up the Indy said one of the lifters was starting to show signs of failing. Made me happy that I listened to all you guys here and changed them out. Now if I could only decide on a set of bars..... But that is another story.  :-\
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efrbc1

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2020, 08:46:49 AM »

Ron,

Looks like one of mine from 2018.  Pieces and parts everywhere - lots in the oil pan.  Only way to properly fix it is a complete teardown.  I changed all bearings and seals, oil pump and plate (trashed), had the crank checked and cleaned and flushed the entire oil feed system.  It's not gonna be cheap........
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2020, 10:37:43 AM »

Ron,
regarding a teardown..
Guys think the rod bearings will be bad after a failure like this. That hasn't been my experience unless they were already bad. With the top end off clean the rods with brake cleaner and a spray can tip, plastic red straw. Then motor the assembly swiftly. After stopping look for up and down movement between the rod and pin, should be none. Move the rods fore to aft in the case, should be smooth no clicks or notchy feel. Check runout. My spec is < .006 TIR not < .012 like the factory, assuming chain drive. If ok proceed pulling the motor to clean out the case and replace the main bearings. Clean and flush everything else. Replace oil cooler, insurance. Pull the oil pan and replace if the baffle can't be removed and replaced. All connecting passages and oil filter assembly plus cooler adapter need to be checked and cleaned. Do this yourself, if you are capable and have the tools, or take it to a qualified shop and insist no shortcuts. For brevity I am not getting into all the overhaul aspects, just an overview.

Regarding prevention.
Springs:
The stock motor only needs about 145# seat pressure and a spring rate of 350 lbs. The 103 has 125# seat pressure but the 7mm valves and spring package are considerable lighter. Failures on a stock 103 are far less common. The stock 110 springs are closer to 165# seat and 420 spring rate. This and the cams (SE255) lift and closing rate are part of the problem.
Cam:
Suggestions for more conservative lobes, TTS 150, HD stock 103 HO, S&S such as 509 or 570, older Andrews grinds such as TW54, Wild Things TC24D, compression adjusted for each. I have excellent dual springs I use, adequate pressure and rate, good for .650 lift. Beehives are touted as being lower pressure. Most from the common vendors, goodson/kibblewhite AV&V PAC, are not. Most will go in the stock heads at ~1.85" and be in excess of 175# seat pressure with a rate that is OK. Still a single spring with no insurance of catastrophic failure if it breaks at mid to high rpm. 
Pushrods:
Use a rigid pushrod. The stock pushrods are not adequate and most aftermarket cams require adjustables anyway or custom solid heavier wall tubes. The SE 18404-08 pushrods are adequate. 
Lifters:
I use and sell an american made lifter that is reduced travel and is designed for higher spring pressures and abuse a typical hydraulic roller heavy valve train dishes out, also slow bleed. It has circlips, not crimped housing, so the axle and bearings can be inspected. I would inspect them at 15k intervals and adjust the interval according to the findings.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 09:51:18 PM by HD Street Performance »
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Tail Rider

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2020, 05:48:18 PM »

I couldn't help but notice that V&H carries a set similar to the SE18404-08, but I see that they are listed at 7/16, not 3/8 and carry a 5/16 thread instead of 1/4. I'd be relatively sure that they probably don't manufacture their own, but would be curious of their thoughts on spec-ing a piece that's a bit more stout. I've wondered also in some instances, where contact has been made with the push-rod tubes with varying push-rods, if these would be an issue.
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2020, 08:10:37 PM »

The Harley pushrods are 5/16" X 24 TPI. The reason I like them is because they are tapered and do clear at the top pinch point unless somebody milled the heck out of the heads and changed the geometry. They are easy for a novice to install and plenty stout for most of the ham and egg builds these builds usually are. I always open those top tubes to 5/8" X 1" down to open up the tight spot, the flange crimp, just as insurance. Most installers don't know the rocker supports can be pulled around to assure clearance, unless they use rocker lockers.
Are you running .650 lift and 185+ lb springs? Then change gears and go to pushrods.net for some pushrods up to that task. They are resold by many.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 01:03:24 PM by HD Street Performance »
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