Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All

Author Topic: Lifters (I know)  (Read 2105 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ultra13

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 335
  • www.CVOHARLEY.com
    • OH


    • CVO1: 2013 CVO Ultra
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2020, 03:36:03 PM »

P.S.  Don't forget your rocker lockers.... ;D
Logged

HD Street Performance

  • Vendor
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2911
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2020, 03:41:58 PM »

There seems to be a pervasive idea that the stock oem cam plate  oil pump, and tensioner need to be replaced.  I am not onboard for most builds.  The stock breather system can only handle so much so where does this added volume end up? A 3 stage pump is an upgrade but if it were my money on all but the highest end builds I would inspect and run stock parts.
Logged

kevin_n

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 248
  • www.CVOHARLEY.com
    • WI

    • CVO1: 2016 SESG
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2020, 06:47:17 PM »

Just lifters and push rods. He said he will inspect everything while he is in there. I forgot about rocker lockers, maybe next time.
Logged

sadunbar

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11412
  • EBCM # Stealth - SSBS # 1.1 - SoA # Z&E2525 .01%
    • IL


    • CVO1: 2007 FLHTCUSE2
    • CVO2: 2000 FXR4
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2020, 08:42:06 PM »

Curious,....changed out with what?

I'm no expert compared to others on here, but it's my understanding that it's not so much the lifters that fail due to poor quality of lifter but a combination of heavy valve springs in the 110 motor plus the 255 cams that have aggressive  lobes that do the lifters in.
 I've read about the stock cams being removed and a bolt in cam set with less aggressive lobes installed that deliver good performance and saves on continuous lifter replacement.

My experience has been that regardless of cam or lifters, I end up having to replace lifters on a regular schedule...
Logged
2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic - Light Candy Cherry and Black Ice
Screamin Eagle 120r
Revolution Performance EMS
Fuel Moto Jackpot headpipes and 4.5" Pro Touring Mufflers
HPI 55mm Throttle Body w/5.3 injectors
BDL clutch w/VPC92T
Traxxion AK-20
Legend Air Suspension
Brembo Brake Calipers/Rotors
Garmin Zumo
575 Chubby's
Bushtec Quantum

longlast

  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3821

Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2020, 10:32:09 PM »

My experience has been that regardless of cam or lifters, I end up having to replace lifters on a regular schedule...

??,....what's your regular schedule?

What make do you use?
Logged

sadunbar

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11412
  • EBCM # Stealth - SSBS # 1.1 - SoA # Z&E2525 .01%
    • IL


    • CVO1: 2007 FLHTCUSE2
    • CVO2: 2000 FXR4
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2020, 03:54:19 PM »

??,....what's your regular schedule?

What make do you use?

I typically use this bike for long trips.  Not to much local riding with it.  "Long trip" generally means 6,500/8,500 miles or so typically in the Rocky Mountains, two up pulling a Bushtec...  I start with new lifters and generally have lifter noise at start up by the end of the trip.  I have reduced valve spring pressure, installed a S&S camplate/oil pump, and run a relatively mild cam with gentle ramps and reasonable lift...  I've used about every brand lifter made, all with very similar results.  To answer your question, I change lifters about every 6,000 to 8,000 miles.  About every other oil change.  Which is ridiculous...
Logged
2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic - Light Candy Cherry and Black Ice
Screamin Eagle 120r
Revolution Performance EMS
Fuel Moto Jackpot headpipes and 4.5" Pro Touring Mufflers
HPI 55mm Throttle Body w/5.3 injectors
BDL clutch w/VPC92T
Traxxion AK-20
Legend Air Suspension
Brembo Brake Calipers/Rotors
Garmin Zumo
575 Chubby's
Bushtec Quantum

HD Street Performance

  • Vendor
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2911
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2020, 01:42:14 PM »

So upon changing them have you disassembled them for a forensic analysis? Do you think the piston jet(s) may be leaking, stuck open. This might explain the first start ticking. Not doubting your abilities just saying this sucks and thinking a little outside the box looking for a solution.
Logged

sadunbar

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11412
  • EBCM # Stealth - SSBS # 1.1 - SoA # Z&E2525 .01%
    • IL


    • CVO1: 2007 FLHTCUSE2
    • CVO2: 2000 FXR4
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2020, 08:13:08 PM »

So upon changing them have you disassembled them for a forensic analysis? Do you think the piston jet(s) may be leaking, stuck open. This might explain the first start ticking. Not doubting your abilities just saying this sucks and thinking a little outside the box looking for a solution.

I checked the piston jets for both leaking and function early one and found them working as intended.  I even removed the 110 and installed a 120 and have the very same lifter life.  Something inherent to the basic design, I imagine Harley likely knows the answer....  It would just be to expensive to them to admit...
Logged
2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic - Light Candy Cherry and Black Ice
Screamin Eagle 120r
Revolution Performance EMS
Fuel Moto Jackpot headpipes and 4.5" Pro Touring Mufflers
HPI 55mm Throttle Body w/5.3 injectors
BDL clutch w/VPC92T
Traxxion AK-20
Legend Air Suspension
Brembo Brake Calipers/Rotors
Garmin Zumo
575 Chubby's
Bushtec Quantum

Ron_Derheim

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • www.CVOHARLEY.com
    • AZ

Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2020, 11:57:34 AM »

Hello all. I have a 16 CVO Street with 16k miles and I just shredded a lifter and caused a bunch of damage in the case. Pretty sure it's not under warranty I'm not the original owner. Does anybody know how many needles are in a lifter bearing? I'm trying to account for the missing pieces. Any help would be awesome. Thank you
Logged

HD Street Performance

  • Vendor
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2911
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2020, 12:23:49 PM »

Pull the sump plug and flush, they will come out. You have bigger issues and the whole system needs to be flushed, a major teardown, in my opinion
Logged

Twolanerider

  • 25K CVO Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 49697
  • EBCM #1.5 Emeritus DSP # ? Critter Gawker #?
    • MO


    • CVO1: 2000 Triple Red Screamin' Eagle Road Glide
    • CVO2: 2002 Candy Brandywine Screamin' Eagle Road King
    • CVO3: 1999 Arresting Red FXR2
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2020, 01:34:22 PM »

Hello all. I have a 16 CVO Street with 16k miles and I just shredded a lifter and caused a bunch of damage in the case. Pretty sure it's not under warranty I'm not the original owner. Does anybody know how many needles are in a lifter bearing? I'm trying to account for the missing pieces. Any help would be awesome. Thank you


Tracking big pieces out the sump is an trip not worth making.  For every big piece you find there will be many small or smaller that you won't see or find that will continue doing damage.  With that damage it's time to break the system open from oil cooler to oil pan.
Logged

timo482

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 832
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2020, 06:25:03 PM »

and this is why i changed lifters, pretty cheap, pretty easy... i took the tank off route so i have 99% stock everything. when i hit 50k, ill change them again

to
Logged

kevin_n

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 248
  • www.CVOHARLEY.com
    • WI

    • CVO1: 2016 SESG
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2020, 11:10:07 PM »

That sucks. When I picked mine up the Indy said one of the lifters was starting to show signs of failing. Made me happy that I listened to all you guys here and changed them out. Now if I could only decide on a set of bars..... But that is another story.  :-\
Logged

efrbc1

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 392
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2020, 08:46:49 AM »

Ron,

Looks like one of mine from 2018.  Pieces and parts everywhere - lots in the oil pan.  Only way to properly fix it is a complete teardown.  I changed all bearings and seals, oil pump and plate (trashed), had the crank checked and cleaned and flushed the entire oil feed system.  It's not gonna be cheap........
Logged
2003 Special Edition Firefighter Road King
2005 Cherry Screamin Eagle Electra Glide

HD Street Performance

  • Vendor
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2911
Re: Lifters (I know)
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2020, 10:37:43 AM »

Ron,
regarding a teardown..
Guys think the rod bearings will be bad after a failure like this. That hasn't been my experience unless they were already bad. With the top end off clean the rods with brake cleaner and a spray can tip, plastic red straw. Then motor the assembly swiftly. After stopping look for up and down movement between the rod and pin, should be none. Move the rods fore to aft in the case, should be smooth no clicks or notchy feel. Check runout. My spec is < .006 TIR not < .012 like the factory, assuming chain drive. If ok proceed pulling the motor to clean out the case and replace the main bearings. Clean and flush everything else. Replace oil cooler, insurance. Pull the oil pan and replace if the baffle can't be removed and replaced. All connecting passages and oil filter assembly plus cooler adapter need to be checked and cleaned. Do this yourself, if you are capable and have the tools, or take it to a qualified shop and insist no shortcuts. For brevity I am not getting into all the overhaul aspects, just an overview.

Regarding prevention.
Springs:
The stock motor only needs about 145# seat pressure and a spring rate of 350 lbs. The 103 has 125# seat pressure but the 7mm valves and spring package are considerable lighter. Failures on a stock 103 are far less common. The stock 110 springs are closer to 165# seat and 420 spring rate. This and the cams (SE255) lift and closing rate are part of the problem.
Cam:
Suggestions for more conservative lobes, TTS 150, HD stock 103 HO, S&S such as 509 or 570, older Andrews grinds such as TW54, Wild Things TC24D, compression adjusted for each. I have excellent dual springs I use, adequate pressure and rate, good for .650 lift. Beehives are touted as being lower pressure. Most from the common vendors, goodson/kibblewhite AV&V PAC, are not. Most will go in the stock heads at ~1.85" and be in excess of 175# seat pressure with a rate that is OK. Still a single spring with no insurance of catastrophic failure if it breaks at mid to high rpm. 
Pushrods:
Use a rigid pushrod. The stock pushrods are not adequate and most aftermarket cams require adjustables anyway or custom solid heavier wall tubes. The SE 18404-08 pushrods are adequate. 
Lifters:
I use and sell an american made lifter that is reduced travel and is designed for higher spring pressures and abuse a typical hydraulic roller heavy valve train dishes out, also slow bleed. It has circlips, not crimped housing, so the axle and bearings can be inspected. I would inspect them at 15k intervals and adjust the interval according to the findings.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 09:51:18 PM by HD Street Performance »
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All
 

Page created in 0.169 seconds with 25 queries.