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[OBB]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/how-harley-davidson-is-seeking-to-smooth-tensions-with-disgruntled-dealers/ar-AA1tqmx1

Published 2 weeks ago. And now We're seeing a rash of dealers closing yet again the end of this month.

[Finster101]

Started going downhill when HD forced dealers to look like McDonalds.  I loved some of the old dealerships that you would find traveling.  They had character.  Now, they're pretty much all the same.

[pauly_2]

So true. I bet the CEO didn’t show up on a bike. They’ve really lost their way.

Started going downhill when HD forced dealers to look like McDonalds.  I loved some of the old dealerships that you would find traveling.  They had character.  Now, they're pretty much all the same.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Lots of things are contributing to Harley's troubles.  Jochen Zeitz is by far the biggest problem.  He still doesn't under stand Harley's culture and buyer.  His goal of making Harley a boutique luxury brand is not what Harley is.  Sure the CVO is.  But Luxury Brands have very high quality.  Over a year into the new Head unit and operating system its still full of bugs and doesn't work correctly.  As usual Harley says its fine.

His DEI push really hurt the company with the consumer.  Harley's core consumer are not into DEI bull crap.  Dealers aren't either.

Making all dealers be new modern mega stores makes it hard for dealers.

The current economy is also hurting Harley.  With interest rates around 5% or more for a bike hurts sales.  Groceries have gone up over 17% in the last 4 years.  Housing costs weather it be a Home or rent are way up.  More than doubled in 4 years where I live, wages not come close to keeping pace.  Insurance and taxes have gone way up here also.

The traditional Harley buyer is getting older, many are over 70 or 75.  They are moving to trikes or sports cars.  Most 30 and 40 year old are not able to afford a Harley, at least not a touring bike.  The under 30 Just don't have an interest.

[English Pete]

All of the above is exactly the same here in the UK.

[kojak]

The traditional Harley buyer is getting older, many are over 70 or 75.  They are moving to trikes or sports cars.  Most 30 and 40 year old are not able to afford a Harley, at least not a touring bike.  The under 30 Just don't have an interest.

We are a shrinking pool of Harley riders for sure!

[Ironhorse]

The traditional Harley buyer is getting older, many are over 70 or 75.  They are moving to trikes or sports cars.  Most 30 and 40 year old are not able to afford a Harley, at least not a touring bike.  The under 30 Just don't have an interest.

And maybe that's why he did all those things we don't like or agree with. Yes, DEI is a liberal thing that goes against most HD owners, but the cold truth is most of us will be dead in 25-30 years, so they need to find new customers if they wish to keep afloat. And when it comes to hard cold buying power does it matter if the customer is a minority, LBGTQ or any of that?  No, money talks and BS walks that's the American way.  So they might as well advertise to everyone because who amongst us at age 70 is going to buy a new HD? Probably not many.

And truth be told, why spend all that money on something like a Harley or BMW when a Japanese motorcycle will get the job done at a lower price?  Also consider that the market is flooded with a ton of used bikes (both HD and other brands) with low mileage.

My Harley is a 2006 CVO Ultra with 110,000 miles on it and it's the last HD I'm buying. It's paid for and gives me everything I want. My other bike is a 2018 Honda GoldWing and I'm keeping that too.  Yes I could buy another bike, but why?

I may be wrong, but that's how I see it.

[FLSTFI Dave]

And maybe that's why he did all those things we don't like or agree with. Yes, DEI is a liberal thing that goes against most HD owners, but the cold truth is most of us will be dead in 25-30 years, so they need to find new customers if they wish to keep afloat. And when it comes to hard cold buying power does it matter if the customer is a minority, LBGTQ or any of that?  No, money talks and BS walks that's the American way.  So they might as well advertise to everyone because who amongst us at age 70 is going to buy a new HD? Probably not many.

And truth be told, why spend all that money on something like a Harley or BMW when a Japanese motorcycle will get the job done at a lower price?  Also consider that the market is flooded with a ton of used bikes (both HD and other brands) with low mileage.

My Harley is a 2006 CVO Ultra with 110,000 miles on it and it's the last HD I'm buying. It's paid for and gives me everything I want. My other bike is a 2018 Honda GoldWing and I'm keeping that too.  Yes I could buy another bike, but why?

I may be wrong, but that's how I see it.

DEI didn't work out for Harley.  Its also not working out for Bud Light, Ford, Target and many others.  Big article the other day, Walmart is dropping their DEI.  Companies do need to attract new customers, but they can't do it by alienating their existing customers. 

Harley in my opinion needs to figure out how to attract younger customers.    30K bikes is  not the way  to do that.  Harley has competition with Indian which is very direct competition.  There is also competition with BMW and Honda, but those are not apples to apples comparison with HD.  BMW and Honda are a more advanced and refined product, probably a better value also.

Harley can no longer rely on every little boy in the 60's, 70's and 80's dreamed of a Harley.  I'm 61 and I am sure I will have  a few more new Harley's in my future.

[Ironhorse]

Companies do need to attract new customers, but they can't do it by alienating their existing customers. 

BMW and Honda are a more advanced and refined product, probably a better value also.

Truer words have never been spoken  But at sometime in the next 25-30 years the existing customers will be gone.  And YES, today's mainstream rejected LBGTQ, it clearly showed in sales and advertising.  However, if there is one constant in the world it's change. 

I'm not that old but I remember when the face of a black, brown, Asian or mixed race person in advertising was VERBOTEN. It was the "kiss of death" for ANY product.  Nowadays multiculturalism is the face of advertising. Current advertising features mixed race couples with biracial children. Back then the idea of a white woman and black man as a couple on TV together was shocking. But today it's so common it's overlooked. So it's only a matter of time before the world catches up to "today's advertising leper", the world of LBGTQ. 

And you're right, BMW and Honda are more refined, advanced and probably a better value. Harley had a great platform in the V-Rod engine, a 100% water cooled motor.  But they shelved it because "the existing customers" didn't like it.  They should bring back the V-Rod engine in a full on touring platform to go along with the new Sportster Revolution engine. 

[FLSTFI Dave]

And you're right, BMW and Honda are more refined, advanced and probably a better value. Harley had a great platform in the V-Rod engine, a 100% water cooled motor.  But they shelved it because "the existing customers" didn't like it.  They should bring back the V-Rod engine in a full on touring platform to go along with the new Sportster Revolution engine.

I agree on the V-Rod engine.  The Revolution Max engine is great also, The Pan America  engine  is fantastic.  Looks aside my Pan America will out accelerate, has a higher top speed, better braking and way better suspension than any other Harley.  Ride modes really tailor the bike to what your using it for or doing with  it.

Harley should build  a touring bike with the Revolution Max engine.  Harley should use what they have learned about suspension that actually works well from the Pan America.  It should have modes that adjust the suspension like the Pan America.

[BigLock]

A year after the Vrod come out,a friend of my at the time owned a dealership. He told me that harley should put that motor in the touring bike. He made the statement that they made alot of power and didn't give you any trouble. I think that was around  about 2002. I myself have been thinking the same thing with all the trouble with the M8.

[Landshark]

I test rode several V-Rods back in the day and was very impressed but didn’t purchase. The reason, no low end torque. I think that was the main reason it was never put into a touring bike.  I’m sure something could have been done to re-engineer it to provide the need torque but I guess HD didn’t want make the changes needed.

[dayne66]

Doesn't the V rod get atrocious fuel economy?.....not really a great attribute for touring.

[Ironhorse]

These are all great answers, especially the discussions about the V-Rod and Revolution engines.

However, it doesn't address the question where HD is going to find a new generation of loyal buyers after we all pass on. Speaking only for myself, I never looked at another rider or person as "Motorcycle Brand Identified" I just see them as another rider and person.  Whatever they ride, American, European, Japanese, Indian (The country) or even Chinese I make it a point to invite them along on rides, tours and even the CVO Get Togethers. And if an HD is in their future, that's great.  If not, it really doesn't matter as long as they ride.

I guess overseas is a good option, Europe, South America and Asia might be able to help carry the MoCo until a new generation of loyal buyers is developed.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Like you I do not care  what they ride.  I'm happy that they do ride.  I ride with people on Indians, Wings and BMW.

I do not know the right answer to attract new customers, younger customers.  I do know they have to figure out how to improve their touring line with out alienating their long time traditional customers. 

The suspension on the  touring bikes sucks compared to any other touring bike on the market.  The frame came out in September 2008 as a 2009.  This is a 16 year old frame.  Who else is selling  new  touring motorcycle on something designed more than 16 years ago?  In this amount of time you would think an engineer could design a frame that give 4 or five inches of travel.