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[phattey]

Need some education....

I look at my dyno and compare it to others here and have a few questions.

First off, I have V&H 2into1, SEAC, PCIII with an '04 103 map. My dyno numbers, with no tuning, are 90.4HP and 93.7TQ.

I'm okay with my numbers considering I didn't open up the motor and like the way it feels on the road. But I'm a little concerned now with my air/fuel ratio. My dealer stated they think I have a nice flat line on the A/F chart. But after looking at some of yours I felt compelled to mention my readings to DnyoJet. DynoJet state I should try to stay in the 13.5 - 14 range. That would require me to dial in the PC on the dyno to accomidate that. No probelm, but that conflicts with what my dealer told me.

I can't get this scanner working to show you so I'll have to explain where mine's at:

2.5k rpm - 14
3.0k rpm - 14.7
3.5k rpm - 13.9
4.0k rpm - 14
4.5k rpm - 14.9
4.7k rpm - 15
5.0k rpm - 14.9
5.3k rpm - 15
5.5k rpm - 14.7

Most of you guys seem to have a lot of experience with this type of tuning. I've never messed with the fuel system untill I got this bike, so I've been relying on my dealer to educate me.

Now I need you guys to step in and help me understand

[DW6019]

Look into what made you originally trust your dealer. Most of them just guess at what they suggest. They either do not understand air/fuel ratio's and what they mean to performance, or they were told wrong by someone in the past and they pass along that information.
Very few of them have decent bikes of there own (tech's that is) and in our dealer they all ride carb bikes and still feel it would be a good deal to convert FI bikes to carbs (FIGURE THAT REASONING).
So read up on air/fuel ratio and take your educated opinion to the dealer, do not depend on there opinion alone.

[phattey]

Thanks...I agree. Taking them as my sole driver on how I tune this may not be in my best interst. All they did was install and get a dyno run. No tuning at all...

That's why I'm reaching out to this site. There's a trust factor here, plus folks have been there, done that with the same bike I have. Thus let the education begin...

Phattey...

[JCZ]

Phattey email me your dyno sheet and I'll scan it and post it for you.

[phattey]

JCZ - Thanks for the offer. I don't have it in email form, and the dealer's computer isn't network (no mail capability) connected. It's just a standalone system.

I'll try to get a buddy to scan it for me tonite.

My dealer just stated that their Dyno probe is bad and might've been going out during the dyno run. Could that make a big difference in the readings..??

Phattey...

[JCZ]

JCZ - Thanks for the offer. I don't have it in email form, and the dealer's computer isn't network (no mail capability) connected. It's just a standalone system.

I'll try to get a buddy to scan it for me tonite.

My dealer just stated that their Dyno probe is bad and might've been going out during the dyno run. Could that make a big difference in the readings..??

Phattey...

Yes, it could make a difference.  I think there are other dyno sheets posted that have exactly what you have with the PC that are up where I'm at in HP and TQ.....go through the dyno thread.  Yours should be right there with the rest of us that are running similar mods.  

Be sure to let your dealership know that you expect to be re-tuned free of charge once they get it fixed.  If it comes to it, pull up the thread on the dyno print outs and show it to them.

[PCC]

Phattey:

If the dealer doesn't have an inertial dyno with the Dynojet Tuning Software then he's not tuning the bike under load as if you were riding it. The air fuel numbers calibrated under this scenario can be all over the map. Let me explain how the dynojet tuning process looks when you're watching a tech do it.

There are  approximately 12 rpm levels at 500 rpm increments and 10-15 throttle position settings to tune. This leaves 120-180 tuning cells in the matrix. Each one of them needs to have a separate air fuel ratio determined but not all of them are tuned. For instance, you can't run 5500 rpm at 0% throttle.

At each throttle position and rpm level, the dyno puts the bike under load, when the load reaches optimum the tech must watch a graphical air fuel gauge with a preset ratio and incrementally adjust the actual ratio from the exhaust gas sensor to that level. He does this by  means of the computer keypad.

If the tech's air fuel goal is 14/1 then your bike will be somewhere in that range when you ride, but the level will still fluctuate because of all the factors which are different outside vs. in the dyno room.

The whole process will take 2-3 hours even with an experienced tech, if done right.

After this, the tech must address the timing curve, which is a separate matirx, but still based on rpm and throttle position. The timing curve is more generic and takes less time to set up.

Without the proper dyno and software, this process might take a full day to correctly conclude. This is one reason why the race tuner comes with maps already laid out.

To help you, IMHO, if you have a certified dynojet facility tune your bike, I think your numbers will go way up and your air/fuel willbe in a much better range.
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[phattey]

Dropped off the bike at the dealer last night. Met with the GM and we worked out some stuff.

They intend to dial it in the best they can. Odd that in my town the only "certified" dynojet PC tuner is a Yamaha dealer. If my dealer can't get it right I guess I'll have to head over there. Luckily I'm very good friends with the Yamaha folks.

That'll really be slap in my dealers face and I do not to do that to them. They've been great over the years...

At any rate, they showed me a different run, which wasn't shared with me originaly. It showed crazy spikes through the AFR, so I'm hoping they get that much more smooth.

Phattey...

[Twolanerider]

At any rate, they showed me a different run, which wasn't shared with me originaly. It showed crazy spikes through the AFR, so I'm hoping they get that much more smooth..

So they had information that was both tuning and drivabiltiy related; about your bike, and they didnt' share it with you?  That hardly strikes me as stellar service.  Really hope the job you get out of them this time measures up to what has been your historical estimation of them.  Nice to know you've got the other shop to fall back on just in case though.  Good luck.

[DEB]

 My $.02 for what it is worth: Check out http://mmgmanagement.com/, go to more dyno results and reads the info provided by Matt Gross.
Also check out the A/F line on the dyno graph I posted for BEAR.
Once you have a pretty good grasp of this info, introduce your dealer to Matt Gross. The comment about the techs riding carb bikes and recommending carbs over EFI speaks volumes in this day and age. I could understand that attitude with the old Marreli EFI system, but the Delphi with the SE R/T has changed everything. I would much rather tune a Delphi bike with the SE R/T then a carb bike because I can get better results and that means POWER.

[PCC]

I think Matt Gross is trying to sell Pro Pipes!

[phattey]

He had me at hello.....

I love my Pro-Pipe...

[DEB]

PCC; I can see you how you would think that, but I think your reading too much into it. What I came away with is: now we can 'see' how efficient or not an exhaust is based on the VE in graph form. That really opened my eyes! It also helps if you look at several different graphs from a variety of pipes, the ones that have a name for performance show a much better graph then the ones that are known to run poorly.

[PCC]

I believe that the Powercommander is a more accurate tuning method than the Race Tuner , at this stage, because the PC tuning software interfaces with the exhuast gas analyzer whereas the Race Tuner is adjust and correct. My tuner, Freedom Cycle has run comparisons of both the Pro Pipe and Freedom Cycle modified Rinehart's which show the opposite results on the same engine configuration. Brad and Mark at Freedom are about as good as you'll find for reasons I've explained elsewhere on this site and actually helped ther former racing buddy, Byron Hines develop the Pro Pipe. Additionally, I believe that somewhere in the neighborhood of 104 ft. lbs. of TQ is about max on a stock 103, based on looking at many, many dyno sheets...so when I see almost 109 on someone's web site... I think....hmmmmmmm.


By the way... I love the Pro Pipe too... at least the original version with the race collector. Since they incorporated the integral heat shield in the HS version...the power output has dropped...again based on Freedom Cycle comparisons of those exhausts.


I actually meant my earlier post tongue in cheek...but since ther's some interest i though I'd expound. I've actually built alot of these engines and I hate to see guys try things that I've tried...that don't work as well as other things. That's the way it is with the Pro Pipe... love it or not... IMHO....I still think it makes less power than Freedom Pipes. Pro Pipes were optimized for 95" motors. But I drone On>.....................


Take a look at Magoo's dyno compared to JCZ's that should tell. I don't remember JC's actaul numbers though. I could be wrong.

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[jmorton10]

>>I believe that the Powercommander is a more accurate tuning method than the Race Tuner

I think you're wrong there.  The race tuner in the hands of a tuner who is very experienced will beat a PC everytime.  The problem is, it is MUCH harder to find a tuner that is good with a RT than a PC.

~John