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[saddlebow]

I saw a thread about Nightrider here a few weeks ago; wrote to them and asked to get on their mailing list for updates as they worked through a solution.  Just got this in the mail from Steve Mullen at Nightrider....maybe some of the tech types can decipher.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hd2007HD_wbo2_upgrade.htm

[Unbalanced]

Saddlebow,

After reading the document provided by Nightrider, they seem like they understand the problem, but with the race tuner you can change the A/F tables from 14.7 to 1 and you automatically disable the closed loop system as it is set for the red cells that show up under A/F on the stock map these cells are the link that tell the race tuner to go into or look for closed loop mode.   So for this case there are no eliminators needed, just a way to tune the bike whether it be a monitoring device or a dyno tune. 

Essentially what they are saying that is unless you take the bike out of the closed loop or put in a better monitoring system that your really asking for trouble on a 110 engine or a stage2 110 or a stage2 103 engine.   They even point out that the stock 96 goes into heat shut down mode after 10 minutes in the shade on what I am guessing was a normal summer day, but that was not said.

All in all they are telling you that fuel is needed especially at idle with these bikes to help you to cool the motor off they also went on to say that failure to do so has already shown scored pistons and other heat related issues/failures.

Their recommendation for the LC1 x 2 is a good idea, but if you already own a race tuner or a power commander you have the tools already in hand to bypass having to make this purchase you just need a good tuner.   

They also recommended the Daytona Twin Tec and the Zippers Thundermax.   The only draw backs to these items is cost and if there is not already a map close for you that you will have to have a map made and possible warranty issues with the dealer.     

The eliminators allow you to remove the closed loop narrow band sensors and not throw any ECM fault codes.   If you remove the narrow band sensors and don't have an eliminator at 50mph you will throw a fault code.   It could happen at other times as well, but this is the point when my bike threw the codes when I was using the Daytona Twin Wego System to diagnose my tuning without using a dyno.
They are easy to clear just annoying as they pop up a yellow icon in the bottom of your dash as an trouble code.   The light is cleared each time you shut down the ignition and restart it, but it quickly shows backup.

[saddlebow]

Unbalanced:
Thanks for the translation and the unpacking for me.  Out of curiousity, and some concern for warranty issues, do the fault codes get stored even thought they clear on restart?  My 06 SEFB has a SERT [bought it that way] and a thunderheader 2 into 1.  It runs well and seems to have no issues, other than mileage in the low 30s. Oil temps consistently run in the 230-240 range even after hard runs across the desert.   My 07 SEUC, on the other hand,runs REALLY hot.  I took it from LA to Mammoth Lakes and back on its maiden voyage,[about a 700 mile RT from sea level to 8500 ft, air temps from 65 to 100 to 35] and coming across the high desert it pinged, tinged, tinked, and generally made me think it was going to melt if it didn't melt me first.  Oil temps in the 270s, mileage got better with each tank and resolved right at 40.  Put V&H TD headpipes and rineharts on it, along with Ness big sucker and made the same run: no pings, tinks etc,mileage no different, but oil temp only came down to the low 250s after running 150 miles non stop. Other than a much better and louder sound, I don't find much seat of the pants difference in performance. I did not make any change to the mapping, or add any other tuner etc.  I was surprised to find that it didn't back fire etc, and seemed to run fine; mileage didn't change.  I remain concerned about getting the best balance to protect the engine and at the same time not having to potentially eat the cost of a 110 rebuild if it blows, or otherwise giving HD an excuse to cut me off.  I'd leave it like it is, but as with electronics, heat is the enemy for engines, and I'm still sceptical about HD's conversion to pimping synthetic oil, esp their own over others. 
I'm NOT in search of the last 2% of power output [I've got a couple of other bikes if I want to scare myself stupid] and would leave it  as is if I thought it was the best compromise solution for an already compromised engine set up.  I would really like to see a temp drop down into the 240s but not if it means HD turns its back on me when it blows......
So what's the choice amongst all of the possibilities to get the max temp reduction consistent with avoiding a compromised warranty?  I spend a lot of time reading the debates and commentary here and have concluded that there is likely more than one way to skin this cat, but most of the enhancements seem to be looking to max out the hp/torque numbers, and I'm not so concerned with that.  I just want to be cool.......
[jeez that was long...........javascript:void(0);]

[Unbalanced]

Well first question I have is do you have a SERT / PCiii on your ultra?

Let's presume you do for now, the biggest thing you could do is to go to a stepped pipe which would allow more air out of the motor.   You could remove your lowers if your not inclined to remove your lowers you could remove the vents inside them.  Next thing you could do is compromise on gas mileage and have some more fuel added to the bike.

Are you running in closed loop mode ie narrow band sensors installed in the bike with no map modifications to the bike?  If you are you could disregard that and have the bike tuned to say 14 to 1 or 13.8 to one so you still get fuel economy, just not epa 14.7 to one

You could switch from the stock air cleaner cover to the new one that has a bit more open air to it forcing more cool wind into your intake vs. it sucking the air in from around the air cleaner cover you currently have.   Rhino is currently running this air cleaner cover, I just don't have a part number handy atm.

You could also consider a freedom cam has a little more duration than stock one and comes in a slight bit later than the stock one but is also designed to help with the cooling of the motor by the design per Brad Yuill the other good news is about that cam is now it is being made so you don't have to buy gear drives you can use your current setup and just have them slip in and you can use your stock pushrods as well so really it is a simple bolt in.   I will tell you that in testing my bike was 10 to 14 degrees cooler than a buddies during the same riding.   Highest I had seen was 247 on temp from the dipstick and that was umm some really fun riding.

Freedom also released a new air cleaner system that is supposed to help with heat, you might give them a call to discuss this new design, or hd-dude may have more insight for you before you call them.   

On a recent trip trip to NC (last week) we rode from Florida to Charlotte NC, then to Virginia to WV then down to Tenn, then to ashville NC over to Maggie Valley 3 days then a 591 mile straight ride home.   During that Trip with a thundermax installed I never saw above 245 degrees most of it was 230-234.   The issue I had was that I gave up highway mileage I was only getting around 27-30 as we were running 75-85 most of the time on the highway.   When we kicked back to 55-70 I was getting around 30.   In the mountains I was averaging about 34-36 at between 15-45 miles per hour.   I stopped a lot for gas as this was my maiden voyage with the thundermax and it was to try and find out what kind of mileage I was getting.

-harry

[ultrafxr]

I have several questions regarding closed loop operation, heat management, sert, etc.

1.  ECM has heat management system to slow idle and enrich afr.  What happens to this system when EITMS (shuts down rear cyl at idle to control heat) is activated?  Is it now a two step process - first go to normal heat managment and if still heating up then shut down rear cyl, or does eitms override the normal heat management process and work alone?

2.  In either case what happens when you install a sert and have bike tuned?  Does loading a different map / modifying existing map overwrite whatever heat management is in the ecm?

3.  From what I understand in the Nightrider article and reply no 10 to this link:  http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php/topic,10754.0.html  with the sert you can control the afr when the system goes into closed loop mode AND the sert can be used to control afr so sysetm never goes into closed loop mode.  I don't know how tuners normally approach this - i.e. determine what afr they want when in closed loop or just keep bike in open loop mode always.

[Unbalanced]

.  ECM has heat management system to slow idle and enrich afr.  What happens to this system when EITMS (shuts down rear cyl at idle to control heat) is activated?  Is it now a two step process - first go to normal heat managment and if still heating up then shut down rear cyl, or does eitms override the normal heat management process and work alone?

2.  In either case what happens when you install a sert and have bike tuned?  Does loading a different map / modifying existing map overwrite whatever heat management is in the ecm?

3.  From what I understand in the Nightrider article and reply no 10 to this link:  http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php/topic,10754.0.html  with the sert you can control the afr when the system goes into closed loop mode AND the sert can be used to control afr so sysetm never goes into closed loop mode.  I don't know how tuners normally approach this - i.e. determine what afr they want when in closed loop or just keep bike in open loop mode always.

Ultrafxr
1.  I am not sure as I have not tried to test it or investigate it.   The first question is whether you have it turned on with the sert.   I would venture to guess that it adds fuel then shuts down if the temperature continues to rise, but that is just a hypothesis atm.

2.  When you overwrite the map you have several choices now you can leave heat management turned on or turned off at your descretion.   Depending on how you modify the map will determine whether you are still making the calls to the narrow band sensor or not and whehter or not you have played with the closed loop bias to add fuel to the system in conjunction with the closed loop.

3.  From tuners that have been throught he Harley school it was explained to me that if you amend the cells to not read 14.6 or 14.5 in the map under AFR you will have disabled the closed loop system.  I can tell you this worked because I took my maps with sensors installed and set the fuel range to 13.7 other than 80/90/100 throttle.  And I set the 0 percent throttle (idle) to 14.0 and 14.2 as tests with the wego system to obtain good volumetrics.   Once the volumetrics were sound I played around with seeing that if I changed and area to read high or low if I really obtained such a setting.   There is some data that comes out that is on both ends of the scale and needs to be disregarded, how much of it I cant really say but there is ALWAYS errand data even with a wide band sensor.

I will see what more I can find out about question 1 and the order if there is an order unless someone else already has the answer.

[ultrafxr]

Ultrafxr
1.  I am not sure as I have not tried to test it or investigate it.   The first question is whether you have it turned on with the sert.   I would venture to guess that it adds fuel then shuts down if the temperature continues to rise, but that is just a hypothesis atm.

2.  When you overwrite the map you have several choices now you can leave heat management turned on or turned off at your descretion.   Depending on how you modify the map will determine whether you are still making the calls to the narrow band sensor or not and whehter or not you have played with the closed loop bias to add fuel to the system in conjunction with the closed loop.

3.  From tuners that have been throught he Harley school it was explained to me that if you amend the cells to not read 14.6 or 14.5 in the map under AFR you will have disabled the closed loop system.  I can tell you this worked because I took my maps with sensors installed and set the fuel range to 13.7 other than 80/90/100 throttle.  And I set the 0 percent throttle (idle) to 14.0 and 14.2 as tests with the wego system to obtain good volumetrics.   Once the volumetrics were sound I played around with seeing that if I changed and area to read high or low if I really obtained such a setting.   There is some data that comes out that is on both ends of the scale and needs to be disregarded, how much of it I cant really say but there is ALWAYS errand data even with a wide band sensor.

I will see what more I can find out about question 1 and the order if there is an order unless someone else already has the answer.

Thanks Harry.  I had dealer flash my stock ecm last week for the EITMS.  Not sure if it ever kicked in - think it did once but not completely sure.  Know that I got caught in some really heavy traffic in Nashville and bike, HQ and I were HOT.  HQ (my bride and BSR) complained about how hot her right foot by the xover pipe got.  Felt heel of her boot when she dismounted and it was blazing.  So I am definitely going to be forced to chg exhaust and get sert.  Would like to preserve whatever heat mgmt ecm has even after new map done via sert.  Looks like I can from what you say.

Want to preserve fuel mileage as much as reasonable and not go full tilt for max performance at all costs.  So I plan to meet with my tuner and discuss this.  Seems to me that allowing ecm to go into closed loop and using the closed loop bias tables to add some fuel would be the way to go. 

I am somewhat familiar with the sert since I had one on my '06.  But I used a canned map that came with it (ok, I did modify it just a little bit, but not much).  So I know the theory behind it but of course that version did not have the closed loop bias table.

I think with a little foresight and some dyno time we can get this baby humming and hopefully not destroy my fuel mileage.

[Unbalanced]

Ultrafxr,

Note here that EITMS is turned off by default in the racetuner default map for 110's .... boggle

[Talon]

I think the system disables the closed loop because of the narrow band O2 sensors on the stock HD unit only work at 14.7:1, but with systems like Thundermax W/ Autotune have wideband O2 sensors that work with a wider ratio range. That is what the Nightrider system does. From what I read it's converting you stock system to use wide band sensors, regardless of whether you have an SERT or not. Does this sound correct?

[Unbalanced]

Here is the new addition for closed loop bias for closed loop running the settings are what comes stock but can range from 409 on the low end to 798 on the high end

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.

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here are the extremes

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Here is the basemap the cells in red show you the closed loop monitoring for the map.  I changed the one cell highlighted to drop it out to show you but the pink over wrote it but it was at 750 rpm which really never falls into play.

[ultrafxr]

I think the system disables the closed loop because of the narrow band O2 sensors on the stock HD unit only work at 14.7:1, but with systems like Thundermax W/ Autotune have wideband O2 sensors that work with a wider ratio range. That is what the Nightrider system does. From what I read it's converting you stock system to use wide band sensors, regardless of whether you have an SERT or not. Does this sound correct?

Yes, but you can set the afr to enable the closed loop operation and then modify the afr when in closed loop by using the Closed Loop Bias table.  So in your last post above, Harry, all the red cells represent that the ecm is in closed loop but the afr shown of 14.6 : 1 can be enrichened via the closed loop bias table.

That is the way I understand it.  Is that right Harry?

[Unbalanced]

Talon yes it converts the ECM to use the LC-1 to allow you to drop the setting from what the narrows use which is 14.6 to a lower range so that you can control the a/f and make the motor run cooler.   

I don't quite understand Harley's thinking behind disabling the EITMS on an 110 engine map it has no effect on the stock bikes (96"), but again never asked as I have been adding fuel to mine and working around the closed loop for a while now.   2 days ago after getting all my volumetrics correctly set or as close as I am going to I think I started messing back with the closed loop system setting all my closed loop bias tables to the highest point they could go to get an idea of oil temp just tinkering around.

Yes the Thundermax with autotune and Daytona Twin Tec both work with wide band sensors where the SERT only comes with Narrow Band sensors and does not out of the box accept anything different.  It is a closed loop system but only for a specific range of points and for a specific range of throttle position which is why they are using the narrow bands as well I guess to appease the EPA.   That is where the LC-1 might come in.  Personally I just prefer to tune the bike the way i want it and bypass using the closed loop system hell that is why I boughtt the SERT anyhow to program the ECM the way I want it.    In regards to the nightrider forum  I am just not sure that they have put enough time into looking at the closed loop bias tables for fuel, they didnt even comment on this and I  saw no mention of this on that thread.   Might be a good question to pose to them on that topic.