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[Texas 103]

Sorry Rhino, if that's the way it came across it wasn't what I intended.  Still running it up to temp.  Just not chasing the line.  Exactly as you describe here.

Don,

I'm sure someone has probally mentioned this...Have you tried a set of colder plugs.... Greg   

[Twolanerider]

Don,

I'm sure someone has probally mentioned this...Have you tried a set of colder plugs.... Greg   

Greg, it hadn't come up in the conversation here (and I should have mentioned it).  But yes, they've been tried.  Infact they're in it now.  Made no appreciable difference.


Thanks for reminding me of that detail  .

[SBB]

I tuned in tonight to hear Rhino's report.

Hint Hint

 

[djkak]

My 80" Evo carb 10.5:1 does the same. The octane doesn't help. Even Cam 2. I'm convinced it's the heads on mine. Yours were just done. Could they be suspect? Hoist!

Hoist brings up a point worth considering. It is possible that combustion chamber modifications may have increased the octane requirements of the engine to a point which pump gas can no longer meet. If this is the case, switching ECM’s and/or pulling the spark timing back may not be the complete answer.

There may be some value in looking at the experience of others running stock or H-D’s HTCC heads in a build with the TMAT auto tune. I suggest this because the HTCC heads seem capable if handling more relative timing and higher CR’s without issue. I ran H-D’s CNC ported heads with their domed piston in my 2002, 103 without issue in 2005. I currently run the 103+ heads with their domed 10.5:1, 113” pistons in weather that you wouldn’t put your dog outside in; including record breaking Las Vegas and Death Valley heat in 7-2005 (103) and last year’s killer California heat (115 shaded) in July (113”) with no engine knock issues.

I run a set of Branch Flowmetrics heads on my ’97 Buell S1. Branch’s kit uses a J&E, 10.5:1 domed piston with their modified “bathtub” chamber. This engine is a 100+ octane engine; you can only nurse it on 91 octane without knocking; a real PITA. Buell’s White Lightning with a Race Kit makes the same power running a 10.2:1 CR and 91 octane gasoline. Apparently the fastest burn doesn’t necessarily always ring the bell.

One thing common to the Branch equipped machines, including a ’93 modified Bagger that I used to run, they seem to have a propensity for quickly blackening a fresh oil change. I attributed this to high pressure blow-by resulting from the fast burn of the Branch combustion chamber. I swapped the piston rings out for Total Seal gapless rings on both the Buell and ’93 Bagger with no change in the oil contamination. The oil in the Branch equipped machines would appear visibly blackened after just a few hundred miles; a cammed and carbureted EVO or Twin Cam with stock or HTCC heads will run 1,000 + miles on a fresh change before the oil begins to darken.     

A couple of questions that I would be asking are:
Does the engine oil prematurely darken relative to a stock or mildly modified machine?

Are the folks like Rhino who seem to be having better results with the TMAT & Auto Tune running a different cylinder head and piston package? Is there a pattern?

Take a look at a couple of “canned” SERT timing tables for a build similar to yours. Are there significant differences in the timing tables at the same load and RPM that you experience issues? If the tables don’t directly compare, is it something that can be translated with reasonable accuracy?

Beyond that, I got nuthin’. Good luck and I hope you get things working ok for the big road trip to the great north west.

djkak

[Twolanerider]

There may be some value in looking at the experience of others running stock or H-D’s HTCC heads in a build with the TMAT auto tune.

DJ, the combination is or course always a consideration.  In this case it's still a question placed at Zippers doorstep though.  It is their ECM with their mapping to implement it running their cams and heads completely rebuilt by them to their own specifications.  It is a collection of parts purchased after conversations that included the words "purchasing for reliablity," "not looking for extremes," "it's got to be rideable," "not looking for issues" and other sundry statements to get the point across.

Kitzmiller's responses were always in the affirmative.  This was a build with a collection of parts that would run all day long, be stable, wasn't extreme in any way and would behave well.  Fortunately it is every bit of that.  Unfortunately it is only every bit of that during cool weather.

DJ, while the head work of course has to be considered (because everything has to be considered) I have discovered now many (too many) ongoing discussions around not just our site but elsewhere on the Internet of similar issues.  SCRM, Fr8tran, myself and a few others have seen it to greater or less extent here; and with a variety of engine component configurations. 

The one constant to the issue has been the TMax system.  More accurately it's probably Zippers implementation of the TMax system via their maps.  In practice at our end that ends up being the same thing though.  But whether it's Zippers TMax system or Zippers TMax system in combination with all the other Zippers parts it's still a question I must ask of Zippers.  Zippers, unfortuantely, just isn't willing to answer. 

[SneakyPete]

Don, when you talk about warm weather, what temp and humidity conditions are you talking about?  Just curious as we have regular 90-95 degree temps and high humidity during the summer months here and I haven't had similar issues with my 120 build and TMAX.  However, I did have a custom base map built, so I'm not using a Zipper's base map.  I should also note that I was very concerned when considering this build about heat build up which is why I chose to thermal coat the combustion chambers and piston tops.  My tuner said he has never seen a 120 run as cool as mine, rarely reaches cylinder head temp of 300 degrees.  Just a thought...

[Twolanerider]

Don, when you talk about warm weather, what temp and humidity conditions are you talking about?  Just curious as we have regular 90-95 degree temps and high humidity during the summer months here and I haven't had similar issues with my 120 build and TMAX.  However, I did have a custom base map built, so I'm not using a Zipper's base map.  I should also note that I was very concerned when considering this build about heat build up which is why I chose to thermal coat the combustion chambers and piston tops.  My tuner said he has never seen a 120 run as cool as mine, rarely reaches cylinder head temp of 300 degrees.  Just a thought...

Pete, I first started hearing it at ambient temps of around 80 degrees.  Detuned the timing curve slightly and it went away to about 85 degrees ambient.  Detuned a bit more and could get away to 90.  Now detuned significantly and still get detonation on days in the low to mid 90s under only moderate acceleration or an uphill grade in the road.

To give an idea of the consequence of what's been done to deal with the pinging consider the following.  The bike had the 575 cams as an upgrade by itself before doing the Zippers "103 Muscle" package that included different cams, pistons, significant headowork, throttle body, intake manifold and air cleaner.  To deal with the detonation in response to only June's temperatures I have had to detune the bike to a point where it was stronger with just the 575 cam job then it is now.  This begs the question "why'd I spend all that money with Zippers."  Especially when a stated precondition to the further work was that the end goal be a preparation that was stable, reliable, not extreme and good for the road.

The temps may vary a bit.  But several now have reported detonation issues with the TMax as warmer weather arrived.  Some very bad, even worse than mine.  Some much milder.

As your application suggests I do tend to believe it's a problem caused by the implementation of the hardware via the supplied map than the actual hardware itself.  But for those 99% of us who don't have a tuner competent in the Zippers package anywhere within range the hardware and software effectively become one; especially when one of the initial promises made on the system was that their provided base maps were all that was needed to get you started. 

At different times Kitzmiller used the words "almost identical" and "just about perfect" to describe the match of their base map to my bike.  Given their intimations and suggestions of system capability, intelligence and tuning range that should be satisfactory.  That it's not is unfortunate.  That they seem willing to let the issue lay dormant and do absolutely nothing about it is more so.

Fr8trn already spoke of just removing his.  In PMs here two others have suggested that is a step they'll soon have to take if they can't get theirs tuned to a driveable state.  Four other members (just on this site) have written stating their intent to not purchase the system (or the system and other hardware) now when they were near doing so.  That's an unfortunate consequence to the company.  But an earned consequence for such a total lack of response or ethic to address at all a paid client that simply asked for help.

[SBB]

Don, when you talk about warm weather, what temp and humidity conditions are you talking about?  Just curious as we have regular 90-95 degree temps and high humidity during the summer months here and I haven't had similar issues with my 120 build and TMAX.  However, I did have a custom base map built, so I'm not using a Zipper's base map.  I should also note that I was very concerned when considering this build about heat build up which is why I chose to thermal coat the combustion chambers and piston tops.  My tuner said he has never seen a 120 run as cool as mine, rarely reaches cylinder head temp of 300 degrees.  Just a thought...

Pete

We may just be lucky with the 120.
Hanging with AJ (I say that like it's a good thing  ) I bought me one of those infared meters for checking my motor temperature when I stop. I am alway 40 to 60 degrees cooler than the other motors.
Like you I have never seen 300 degrees on my motor.
Just an FYI
Probably has nothing to do with the T-max

[Twolanerider]

Pete

We may just be lucky with the 120.
Hanging with AJ (I say that like it's a good thing  ) I bought me one of those infared meters for checking my motor temperature when I stop. I am alway 40 to 60 degrees cooler than the other motors.
Like you I have never seen 300 degrees on my motor.
Just an FYI
Probably has nothing to do with the T-max

That's an interesting ancillary note on this one Chip.  Even with the detonation issue that seems so directly relative to ambient temps I'm not seeing or suspecting high engine temperatures.  A couple months back when in Georgia Chuck shot mine and his with his I/R gun after identical rides.  I was almost a 100 degrees cooler at one point.  Even when putting slowly through town on a thoroughly heat soaked engine I've still yet to see oil temps reporting much above 230-250.  Going down the road on even the warmest days so far those oil temps are in the 160 range.  So I've got to believe it's ignition initiated detonation in conjunction with higher ambient temperatures rather than simply premature detonation from fuel hitting hot jugs and pistons.

[jdk20723]

Hello Don,

I've checked my voice mail, email and with our with our product support guys and so far no one has reported hearing from you about your problem.  So I can only assume your cries for help have only been on this site, not to Zipper's directly?

I've mentioned before that our workload won't allow me the time to exclusively monitor this site to help solve any issue that may arise.  Since the product is being so widely accepted, we have established channels to deal with questions and tech support on the ThunderMax.  I know you've stated that you've been busy, but if you'll take the time to locate the tech support form at the back of the ThunderMax manual, fill it out and send it to us, we'll be happy to help.  But there are some questions that need to be answered before we can.  Also, since you've modified the map, please copy and send the map to productsupport@zippersperformance.com so we can see what you've done to it.

I've attached the form in case you no longer have it.  If you'll take the time to follow these steps, we'll get back to you asap.

Thanks, JK

[Twolanerider]

Hello Don,

I've checked my voice mail, email and with our with our product support guys and so far no one has reported hearing from you about your problem.  So I can only assume your cries for help have only been on this site, not to Zipper's directly?

John:

While I am gratified that you have finally responded here your assumption would be incorrect.  I called Zippers.  Spoke with Randy.  Randy is who the receptionist described as the person handling Thundermax and map questions.  I described what was going on.  The gentlemen said he'd get back to me.  There was no other guidance to tech support forms or any other medium of support offered.  If you have a mandated support process that company personnel don't advise of, yet won't actually offer support without, the fault is not with me.

I waited for that promised response.  It didn't come.  I then asked you here directly as a means to follow up or pursue the question in an alternative means to that first attempt.  Though your busy schedule didn't keep you from logging in to the site several times after the question was placed you declined any opportunity to answer or even recognize the question; as had been the case with other questions asked here by other members.  You didn't even offer a quick response to cite the support the process you now cite as the mandatory means to gain aid.  Having quickly done so could have gained a company customer valuable time in the process.  That such a simple response wasn't given initially is difficult to understand.

It was only after the question in this forum had been posted through a few of your login sequences that the conversation was taken to this more public and open thread.  In other words there were no original "cries" only on this public forum.  There were, instead, appropriate and professional requests to the company followed by a similar request to you here in the vendor section that would have allowed a simple, direct and one-on-one response.  After all of that was unheeded there were still no "cries."  There was just general (and earned) dissatisfaction that became an accurate public discussion here.

Your tone seems to suggest you feel victimized or targeted.  That wasn't the case though.  There was ample opportunity to respond before the bullseye was self-placed.  To further prosecute the process, however, I will gladly execute the form you cited.  The issue exists with absolutely no changes to the map.  In fact it is worst in that trim.  So it should be an easy process.  The proof of the pudding is in the eating.  That pudding will then be judged by the quality and alacrity of the response to the form you mandate for support.  It will be interesting whether the form process becomes a medium for effective support or a mechanism for further delay.

Thank you for finally offering response.  It has been anticipated.  Whether actual progress results is what you and I (and anyone else) can now pay heed to.

Don Carey

[Twolanerider]

John,

Just in case there might be some error in documents handling through your fax the docs requested should no be on Zippers' fax machine right now.  To avoid further delaying the already delayed process I produced the data requested right away.  To supplement the fax transmissions copies are provided here.

Your doc:

[Twolanerider]

A screen shot of the full data page.

[SBB]

Since the product is being so widely accepted, we have established channels to deal with questions and tech support on the ThunderMax.  I know you've stated that you've been busy, but if you'll take the time to locate the tech support form at the back of the ThunderMax manual, fill it out and send it to us, we'll be happy to help.  But there are some questions that need to be answered before we can.  Also, since you've modified the map, please copy and send the map to productsupport@zippersperformance.com so we can see what you've done to it.

I've attached the form in case you no longer have it.  If you'll take the time to follow these steps, we'll get back to you asap.

Thanks, JK

BOY!
This gets better and better.
Just glad I don't have the Thunder Max Auto Tune.

Don your post of,
"The issue exists with absolutely no changes to the map."
Contradicts with JK's post of,
" Also, since you've modified the map, please copy and send the map to productsupport@zippersperformance.com so we can see what you've done to it."

I thought of lots of remarks that I could post and even erased some that would probably get me chastised but you clearly have much more patience than I do.
So now the wait for a response begins.
Good luck Don, the PC was shipped today.
Hope you don't need it!

[jdk20723]

Don,

Got it!  We'll take a look and get back to you tomorrow.

(Sorry for the delay, I had to find a dictionary and look up 'alacrity'.  For other common folk like me, it's a noun meaning "cheerful eagerness; sprightliness"

Thanks, JK