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[Twolanerider]

You are correct, sir.  Used to the the R number, as my Grandaddy owned an Amoco Station for over 25 years, and the "white gas" was then one of the higher numbers...99, if memory serves me.  they changed it in the very early 70's, if I recall.

Just the thought of that change brings back a lot of good memories.  I started working at my dad's Texaco station when I was about 11; probably 1972 or so.  Working the grease rack and the gas island.  Had to carry a milk crate out reach across the windows.  I can remember the local jobber bringing new stickers to put on the pumps.  Though it didn't mean as much to me as the developing interest in the teen age girls that game in for gas and thought the little kid was "cute."

[Twolanerider]

Just finished the phone calls and other things I had to get done now.  Going out to the garage to clear the software, load the revised map, hope my assessemly skills don't lead to pushrods coming through the seat and skewering my private parts and then riding the bike for awhile this afternoon to exercise and evaluate the revised map.  Choosing to be optimistic.  Everyone please keep their fingers crossed  .

[Midnight Rider]

Just the thought of that change brings back a lot of good memories.  I started working at my dad's Texaco station when I was about 11; probably 1972 or so.  Working the grease rack and the gas island.  Had to carry a milk crate out reach across the windows.  I can remember the local jobber bringing new stickers to put on the pumps.  Though it didn't mean as much to me as the developing interest in the teen age girls that game in for gas and thought the little kid was "cute."

Same here, Don...my Grandfather was sort of winding down the business by the time I was old enough to drive in '67, so he went from Pure Oil Company (later Union 76) and a fairly large gas/repair business, to a little two pump Amoco across the street from his old business.  I helped out there the summers of 67, 68, and 69 by pumping gas, oil changes, grease jobs, and minor tune ups.  Fixed flats, etc.  Made 90 cents an hour, plus gas at cost, which was about 13 or 14 cents a gallon, I think.  I would take the service truck and go pick up my Granny around lunch time and bring her to work, where she would feed us, then work the register until closing time, smoking cigarettes all afternoon.  Credit back then was signing a paper ticket which was kept in a cigar box, then folks would come in on payday and settle up their gas bill for the week.  Never had a person not pay their bill...that's just the way people were back then, black or white.  Learned not to be afraid of getting a Chilton's book out and figuring out things on a car back then.  In the school months, I'd work at the local Western Auto after school and on weekends, as stock boy, tire changer, did some brake jobs, tune ups, water pumps...that kind of stuff.  Kept the auto parts stocked and organized, sold Delta Tires.  toys and assembling bicycles at Christmas time.  Oogle the girls at the drug store next door, where they had cherry cokes, milk shakes, and a grill. 

[Midnight Rider]

Just finished the phone calls and other things I had to get done now.  Going out to the garage to clear the software, load the revised map, hope my assessemly skills don't lead to pushrods coming through the seat and skewering my private parts and then riding the bike for awhile this afternoon to exercise and evaluate the revised map.  Choosing to be optimistic.  Everyone please keep their fingers crossed  .

Hope it runs like a scalded dog!!!

[REGGAB]

Just finished the phone calls and other things I had to get done now.  Going out to the garage to clear the software, load the revised map, hope my assessemly skills don't lead to pushrods coming through the seat and skewering my private parts and then riding the bike for awhile this afternoon to exercise and evaluate the revised map.  Choosing to be optimistic.  Everyone please keep their fingers crossed  .

Fingers crossed here, Don.  Perhaps ballistic shielding is in order...............just to be on the safe side.   Can't get that video out of my head when that rider gets hit with one of his pistons.

[BayouBiker]

I'd just like to add my .02 now that I've got some miles on:

I put the Zippers TMAT on a SEUC w/stock engine at 985mi. Loaded a base map (#379) and then put on 150mi, 10-20 at a time (to let it tune).
Then added the Kury 'roll yer own' A/C. same map, rode 50mi, 10 at a time.

While waiting for pipes & mufflers to arrive I rode another 200mi.

Added Rinehart slip-ons, still same map(#379), rode 150, 20-30 at a time. Next day, V&H headpipes showed up, put 'em on (forgot to re-initialize) and rode 200, 20 at a time.
Re-initialized later that day & the idle smoothed out.

I live in New Orleans where the ambient air temps have been in the mid 90's with heat index yesterday near 105, we also have high humidity and dew points, 0' elevation (or less)
so at times it's like riding in a blast furnace   

I run 93 octane & what I have noticed is this-
oil temps are down an average of 25* (switching to Mobile1 V-Twin this week-end)
drivability is great, got power at 2000rpm in 6th when needed for passing
no noticeable pinging or knocking (radio is off)
I love the way my red Jester runs with the TMAT as I've configured it. (its done the work for me)

I have made NO changes to the map whatsoever, I've just let it do its thing (tune itself)

I know 'your mileage my vary', but for me and the few changes I've made, I'm a happy camper!

So, today - Bourbon St (Johnny Whites) and knock back a few 

Thanks for listening.....

[Ironhorse]

BayouBiker,

Your story is what everyone is striving for when it comes to Zippers products. However it seems that more often than not, a lot of Zippers customers end up waiting, on hold, in park, or whatever you want to call it, for technical help. I sure am glad we have folks like Rhino over here, and Jerry S. over on the VTF. Those guys understand how the system works and can usually point you in the right direction and help you out. They understand tuning, and timing and FI tweaking. Me, I'm still looking for a screw on a carburator to richen or lean out. It's also nice to have someone like Mike (Dawg) DC Fireman to go through the backdoor for us to try and find Zippers people to help us out too.

TwoLane, my fingers are crossed, and I have said a prayer.
Keep us posted.

Mark

[Twolanerider]

I'd just like to add my .02 now that I've got some miles on:

Bayou, that's great.  We've mentioned before in this thread that some have had excellent experiences.  For those that have there is no doubt everyone else wishes them well and envies them their success.  Simply working without problem is certainly the easiest, cheapest and happiest solution.  Really glad your system is doing so marvelously.  Congrats and absolutely hope it does nothing but keeps doing the same.

Unfortunately not everyone is having such a seamless experience.  And when we don't it's a pain; like all problems are.  That some have had such a difficult time getting effective assistance is a two-fer.  Sort of rubbing salt in the original wound.

I just got back from about a four hour ride.  Still much the same problem.  Had an email from Fitzmaurice at Zippers just following up to which I responded as follows.  It effectively summarizes what I saw today so can let the email speak to the day:

Thanks Dan.  Literally just walked back in the door from a little over a four hour ride.  Just under 220 miles.  The firmware version had been updated and is the most current.
 
Unfortunately still got detonation issues.  Had it from the first few miles.  Wanted to give the autotuning capability a chance to autotune though so kept on going.  Really saw very little difference.  I appreciate the effort you put in to trying.  Really do.  I know Kitzmiller and I each think unfavorably of the other.  But I'm not letting an opinion of one color the efforts made by another.
 
Here's what I had this afternoon.  Day was between 85 and 90 all afternoon.  Humidity about 45%.  Really not a lot of difference from before.  I could be cruising at 75 in fifth gear and twist the throttle only moderately, not even hard acceleration, and would get pretty significant detonation.  If the throttle was feathered through it could be avoided.  But even light to average acceleration would bring it on.
 
Cruise control on in 6th gear on a slight grade would still bring on a light ping.  A long such grade would bring it on more.  Cruise control on in 6th gear at 75 mph brought on a little ping once on even flat road.
 
Attempts at hard acceleration from cruise speeds/RPM brought on detonation that you just have to get out of the throttle for.  Especially later in the afternoon as it warmed up a bit more.
 
Dan, I need an honest analysis at this point.  I'm at only a 1000 feet elevation and it's not high summer yet.  Leaving in three weeks for a trip that will cross in to high summer in the upper desert of the NW and could see elevations of 10,000 feet or more. If you take a crack at this again will I end up with a serviceable result? 
 
I don't ask this with rancor.  I'd prefer the company's support and the product itself were successful.  The system working is the easiest and cheapest solution for me.  But if we're not very confident it's going to I have to make a change.  And I have to do it in short order.  Your honest advice is my next step.
 
Thank you,
Don Carey

Will give Dan a day or two to think about it.  Final decision as to maintaining or moving on by first of the week.  At this point it is hard to trust the system for the variety of climates that will be part of the upcoming trip.  Suggestions to the contrary notwithstanding, however, this entire process is about giving the company the opportunity to get it going (and gauging the effectiveness of doing so).  It's just a pretty tame 103 that won't currently run in the summertime.  Trying to make that better.

[Hoist!]

That sucks Don! Sorry the new map didn't help. Is it running any differently at all? How do check to see if the ECM is working correctly. Maybe it's stuck somehow and not responding to required autotuning changes. I have no idea if that's even possible. Just throwing ideas out there. I've been thru painful electrical issues before and I feel your pain! Hope you get it soon! Hoist!

[Ironhorse]

Don,

I'm sorry to see that there was no change for the better for you.

A couple of things came to mind for me, and I'm pretty sure you already did them.

Did you clear the IAC offsets?
Did you reinitialize?
Did you let the bike start up cold, NOT USING the AUTO-IAC feature, but instead letting the Auto-tune set the IAC?
Did you run let it warm up un-touched to 289 degress, shut it off with the key, then back on to keep the settings?

I sure hope Fitz-n-Kitz can help you out. I'd hate to see you have to go to a Thunder-Max Tuning center for a custom MAP.
But like I said, don't do anything more to piss 'em off or they will turn their back on you and you'll be left out in the cold too.

Mark

[Rhino]

If your bike is running the same, there is something definitiely wrong.   If you installed the new map, and updated the software, you should be running very well.  3 others with your combo have chimed in to me, and they made some changes as an experiment. Then they went back to the beginning as requested.

Anyway, the last response from you was that you could not load the map.  That tells me that there is a possible system problem with your computer. That is of course, if you did everything correctly to get where you are now. (me, I think you did not get it to take, but that is just MHO).  Sometimes, interference occurs if you are using a virus or blocking program, casues the computer to crash or miss a beat. 

I will offer one more suggestion, then I am out of it.

Hookup computer to bike
open Smartlink Software
turn bike on (electrics only)
link bike module to computer
READ module and wait for complete cycle.
LOOK at the top of the maps
What do they say?
Map should read map provided.
MODULE should read the installed MAP
At top of window, it should say end user and a map code.
At top of window, it should also say a seperate map code, as the map you saved. What is it?
If all of the above is checked, and noted and posted, then I would be suspect of
another issue computer related, not letting the TMAX lock to the ECM.
However, if you are certain all of the above is good,
then I admit I am lost.

I have seen this happen a few times, and have overcome it rather quickly,
but for some reason, it's not working for you. This intrigues me and
certainly is giving me a headache. Wish you were closer, we could fix this in
ten minutes.  Same for the ride, the autotune will pretty much fix and lock in ten minutes, or a few miles max. The long runs are for learning and tweaking, and the short runs do the same. The key is everytime you start and stop the electrics, it saves that run as a new tweak to the base map. But no matter what, the first start should be close to finished, and certainly not allow pinging.  It is a mystery for me at this point if you are POSITIVE the programming etc went properly without a missed step.

Rhino

Bayou, that's great.  We've mentioned before in this thread that some have had excellent experiences.  For those that have there is no doubt everyone else wishes them well and envies them their success.  Simply working without problem is certainly the easiest, cheapest and happiest solution.  Really glad your system is doing so marvelously.  Congrats and absolutely hope it does nothing but keeps doing the same.

Unfortunately not everyone is having such a seamless experience.  And when we don't it's a pain; like all problems are.  That some have had such a difficult time getting effective assistance is a two-fer.  Sort of rubbing salt in the original wound.

I just got back from about a four hour ride.  Still much the same problem.  Had an email from Fitzmaurice at Zippers just following up to which I responded as follows.  It effectively summarizes what I saw today so can let the email speak to the day:

Thanks Dan.  Literally just walked back in the door from a little over a four hour ride.  Just under 220 miles.  The firmware version had been updated and is the most current.
 
Unfortunately still got detonation issues.  Had it from the first few miles.  Wanted to give the autotuning capability a chance to autotune though so kept on going.  Really saw very little difference.  I appreciate the effort you put in to trying.  Really do.  I know Kitzmiller and I each think unfavorably of the other.  But I'm not letting an opinion of one color the efforts made by another.
 
Here's what I had this afternoon.  Day was between 85 and 90 all afternoon.  Humidity about 45%.  Really not a lot of difference from before.  I could be cruising at 75 in fifth gear and twist the throttle only moderately, not even hard acceleration, and would get pretty significant detonation.  If the throttle was feathered through it could be avoided.  But even light to average acceleration would bring it on.
 
Cruise control on in 6th gear on a slight grade would still bring on a light ping.  A long such grade would bring it on more.  Cruise control on in 6th gear at 75 mph brought on a little ping once on even flat road.
 
Attempts at hard acceleration from cruise speeds/RPM brought on detonation that you just have to get out of the throttle for.  Especially later in the afternoon as it warmed up a bit more.
 
Dan, I need an honest analysis at this point.  I'm at only a 1000 feet elevation and it's not high summer yet.  Leaving in three weeks for a trip that will cross in to high summer in the upper desert of the NW and could see elevations of 10,000 feet or more. If you take a crack at this again will I end up with a serviceable result? 
 
I don't ask this with rancor.  I'd prefer the company's support and the product itself were successful.  The system working is the easiest and cheapest solution for me.  But if we're not very confident it's going to I have to make a change.  And I have to do it in short order.  Your honest advice is my next step.
 
Thank you,
Don Carey

Will give Dan a day or two to think about it.  Final decision as to maintaining or moving on by first of the week.  At this point it is hard to trust the system for the variety of climates that will be part of the upcoming trip.  Suggestions to the contrary notwithstanding, however, this entire process is about giving the company the opportunity to get it going (and gauging the effectiveness of doing so).  It's just a pretty tame 103 that won't currently run in the summertime.  Trying to make that better.

[Ironhorse]

Rhino,

I guess the easiest way to know would be for Zippers to send him a new ECM loaded with the same MAP. If the bike runs well, then yes, it was a bad ECM all along. If the bike still pings and runs like crap, then it probably has to do with matching the build to the MAP tune, correct?

Mark

[Rhino]

My thoughts are not so much on a bad ECM, but TwoLane is the only one that knows the map #'s in his computer and module.  Of course, if the maps are distorted or not loading, he can now see that. Then, I would be suspect of the computer he is using.   If all else fails, then of course, try a new ECM.  But, I would check a variety of things first, like even the connections on the autotune sensors, and make sure that the closed loop module was not only on the computer/map side, but in the bikes module as well.  Is there a bad 02 Sensor?  etc etc.. These tiny little things, if glossed over, can make a life miserable. I know this, just from my own silly experiences with my rush to judgement on some settings.

Rhino

[Twolanerider]

If your bike is running the same, there is something definitiely wrong. 

Rhino, it's not running "the same."  Though it is running much the same.  Acceleration isn't quite as sharp as it was before.  The ping is slightly less pronounced.  Less hard.  But still there in all the same ranges.  The revision was a step in the right direction.  But, unfortunately, only a very very small one.  You still can't just ride the bike.  If past trends are instructive it'll only be worse on hotter days.  So, yes, the revision made a difference.  A slight one. But the general problem still exists.

 

It is a mystery for me at this point if you are POSITIVE the programming etc went properly without a missed step.

Rhino

Absolutely positive.  With adamentine certainty.  Connections are good, etc etc etc.  The problem isn't in the computer, it's in the bike 

the last response from you was that you could not load the map.

No Rhino, a much earlier response was that the version of SmartLink I had was reporting a file format error and that I didn't immediately find a link to dl the latest version of Smartlink.  The software was later downloaded and the newer format file was used without problem.

(me, I think you did not get it to take, but that is just MHO).

Zing, across the bow goes the shot.  No, Rhino, the new file loaded to the module.  Granted, this IT stuff is difficult for me.  I only did systems design and deployment for a few years, troubleshoot some minor systems for Raytheon, Boeing or Thiokol occasionally and worked in PC environments for a decade or so.  So this hooking bike to a PC stuff is some deep chit.  But I got the cheese to lead the mouse to the PC and I plugged the mouse's tail right in to that Thundermax thingie.  The little bastard bit me, but he was in there.  File went right in right after I got the rabies shot.

Ok, kidding and "humble opinions" aside; yes the file loaded.  EVERYTHING that is supposed to report reports.  Connections are fine.  Engine assembly was fine.  Pushrods were adjusted correctly per Zippers supplied data sheet.  In fact ALL appropriate directions from Zippers have been followed to the letter; even when they themselves have been revised.  It's all good.  It still pings.

However, if you are certain all of the above is good, then I admit I am lost.

I started to write "Hallelujah," rest my tired fingers and just move on.  But I do appreciate all the time you took to offer all the points of consideration; no matter how obtuse they might have been.  It's the little things that will bite a guy in the ass after all.  So any ideas offered really are appreciated.

Rhino, as has been said before, no one doubts that yours is doing well.  And that's great.  It's just that for some reason others of us aren't having the same experience.  Why that seemed to trouble you so is beyond me.  You crossed the line a bit from suggesting ideas on the one hand to looking for and pre-supposing end user blame on the other. 

You don't need to defend your own experience.  Really.  I'm happy yours is a seamless usage of the system.  Sure as well wish mine was the same.

No matter how effective your usage has been, however, you have to admit that if someone is experiencing a problem they need to know that effective assistance is easily gained from the supplier.  That is especially true when the supplier and the product are as proprietary as is this system and the system in question is primarily responsible for keeping you off the side of the road. 

We've really only got one source for help.  With the prospect of being on the road in the middle of no where ahead of you that source must be reliable.

That being so the BIG issue here has never been the hardware.  I still think that if implemented correctly this system would be the nuts.  I don't think it's a hardware problem at all; I'd bet 103Thunder's left nut that it's software.  But the two become one when support for either comes from one place.  In my case, and unfortunately in the case of others, that support has been at times either difficult to get, ineffective or both.

Rhino, support issues aren't a problem when the system works great.  When it works great you don't need the after the fact support.  It's far easier to praise someone when you don't have to test them.

To summarize though, I've still got ping.  With having done all the right things I've still got ping.  I'm not a novice with the technology nor with the mechanical side.  I'm also smart enough to know what I'm not familiar with and ask for help.  Which is why help was requested of Zippers for further more sophisiticated responses or revisions in the map.  But I've still got ping...

Have already received a response from Fitzmaurice with timing alternatives to try myself on top of what his revision offered.  Most are steps I'd gone through before with the old map.  But I'll gladly try it one more time with the revised map just because giving them every opportunity to make it right is the right thing to do. 

Fitzmaurice is now making an effort.  That is a profound improvement on the company representative's performance previously.  Whether the effort is successful or not is yet to be seen.  The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.  And I've still got ping.

[Twolanerider]

Don,

I'm sorry to see that there was no change for the better for you.

A couple of things came to mind for me, and I'm pretty sure you already did them.

Did you clear the IAC offsets?
Did you reinitialize?
Did you let the bike start up cold, NOT USING the AUTO-IAC feature, but instead letting the Auto-tune set the IAC?
Did you run let it warm up un-touched to 289 degress, shut it off with the key, then back on to keep the settings?

I sure hope Fitz-n-Kitz can help you out. I'd hate to see you have to go to a Thunder-Max Tuning center for a custom MAP.
But like I said, don't do anything more to piss 'em off or they will turn their back on you and you'll be left out in the cold too.

Mark

Thanks Mark.  Fortunatley only minimal gains in the effort to date.  All the latest guidances for startup, clearing and reset, etc etc etc had been done previously and were done again at noon today when the revised map was installed. 

Wish it had been a silver bullet.  No such luck though. 

Visiting a T-Max tuning center isn't a geograhic practicality.  It'll either have to work and dial itself in as advertised, do so with company support or be pulled for another option.  Reliability on the road is more important than whose ECM is controlling going down the road.  The cost of such a custom creation isn't supposed to be part of the TMax/AT package either.  Though if geograhy weren't an issue I'd likely give it a try without much thought.

As is it'll either work or it won't.  If not the company will have been afforded the opportunity to make it so and efforts will have been expended to help them help me make it so.  The efforts will have been real and well intended.  After all, it's easer and cheaper to make what I've got go than to have to go again with something else.

If in the end the TMax problem just doesn't resolve they'll be asked if they are willing to buy it back.  I assume they'll say no; but I don't know that.  Their response to that question will be factored in to my overall evaluation of their response generally.  I hope it sorts out.  Because I'd prefer to be happy with what I've got and be without worry over it than to change it all out.  But change it out I will if that's what's necessary to go securely down the road.