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[Twolanerider]

My point is that tuning alone may not be the answer and the problem may not be exclusive to the T-Max.

I sincerely hope that you get everything sorted out.

Thanks very much.  That's my hope too.

That it simply won't go away with tuning is of course always a potential consideration.  Not one I'd look forward to.  But a potential consideration nonetheless.

Were that so than I'd have an entirely different set of questions for company.  All the components impacting the problem would be theirs in the form of the "103 Muscle Kit."  Made perfectly clearn before order was that I was after nothing radical, not even moderately extreme.  Didn't even want to screw with compression releases.  Goal was only an improvement that would be a highway cruising bike that would be everyday reliable.  There was never any equivocation from that target.

With that as a foundation instruction for the order, and all the parts effecting it being supplied by them, I'd then be asking why I had not just a detonation issue but one so bad it couldn't be tuned out without gutting the gains in performance they'd taken the money for?  Fortunately I'm still choosing be optimistic and assume that effective tuning with product and bike in hand will beat the problem.  But you're right, I know that optimism may not bring an effective final result.

If I remember correctly Jim's T-Max installation (Jim from Scotland) is on an otherwise stock 110.  SCRM's is an engine built for far more output than mine.  And mine is a pretty plain jane minor upgrade.  So at least with those three the detionation issue covers the gamut of engine changes from none to milk toast to very strong.  Who knows what will end up resolving it though.  Just hope some solution ends up being easy.

[SBB]

I don't run the TMAT, but I ran across this forum thread discussing it.  Over 1700 posts to this thread on the Zipper Automax Thunder Tune. 

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93157

OK

Call me lazy, but reading 1700 post on something I have already decided I don't want seems like a waste.

So whats the general direction of the 1700 post on the t max subject?


 

[Bagger]

OK

Call me lazy, but reading 1700 post on something I have already decided I don't want seems like a waste.

So whats the general direction of the 1700 post on the t max subject?


 

Didn't read beyond the first couple of posts, but it appears the thread is for those that have the TMAT and offers tips.

[spydglide]

OK

Call me lazy, but reading 1700 post on something I have already decided I don't want seems like a waste.

So whats the general direction of the 1700 post on the t max subject?


 

I'm with you, Chip.....there is too much going on with the scooters that have tried this...we need more credible info to refute our initial impressions, or I'm with you on the " don't want" decision.      spyder

[Rhino]

Check your PM.

  I have an appointment on 7/13 with a Zipper's authorized tuner in central Fl, so I'll know then if he can tune it out. 

[Rhino]

Still looking for trends and other data that might be instructive. 

My suggestion to hookup the laptop etc and add fuel and retard timing should take no more than 5 minutes, and a few minutes to ride around. I hope you find the time to at least do this task, It would say a lot. At the same time, log it, and then send it over. I have the buikd softwaew, and can analyze the run and pinpoint any areas suspect.

Also, I don't think you answered one other members question regarding the build.  Was this parts purchased from Zippers that you installed yourself, or did the do it and ship out the finished goods?  Thanks...Still plunking along mystified, but I love challenges.  I will be also talking with Zippers Monday AM on a scheduled call.

Ron (eyemateypatchespeglegsandparrotsforanotherweekitseems)

[Twolanerider]

My suggestion to hookup the laptop etc and add fuel and retard timing should take no more than 5 minutes, and a few minutes to ride around. I hope you find the time to at least do this task, It would say a lot. At the same time, log it, and then send it over. I have the buikd softwaew, and can analyze the run and pinpoint any areas suspect.

Also, I don't think you answered one other members question regarding the build.  Was this parts purchased from Zippers that you installed yourself, or did the do it and ship out the finished goods?  Thanks...Still plunking along mystified, but I love challenges.  I will be also talking with Zippers Monday AM on a scheduled call.

Ron (eyemateypatchespeglegsandparrotsforanotherweekitseems)

Hey there,  the questions on the build had been answered (I think a couple of times throughout the thread actually).  But just to be clarify; parts from Zippers and I did the assembly.

Rhino, today was and continues to be a long day at the desk.  Tomorrow much the same.  Real life often intrudes on what we'd like to do.  I'll try to log data tomorrow afternoon.  It will depend, however, on how much time can be taken away from other things. 

Like you I'd like nothing other than to find a simple solution.  I do have a schedule consideration of the local shop having only one tuning spot in their schedule between now and the departure for the Nelson trip.  That slot is only a few days away.  So if I can't know for sure the TMax question can be resolved by then I'll have to go the other way; at least for now.  It's no statement of anyone's willingness to assist at the moment.  Just a practical scheduling reality.

[Rhino]

OK then, I wait.......    Let me know.

Rhino

[FR8TRN]

oh, Friend With Benefits 

Ah...ok, I was thinkin Fat White Broad and figured hey, their fun.....ya just don't let your friends find out. LOL

[Ironhorse]

  But just to be clarify; parts from Zippers and I did the assembly.

TwoLane,

Are you running the Zippers Throttle Body as well? I ask because if this situation is NOT resolved before your trip, is swapping back to the OEM ECM, and getting a dyno tune (I know,....more money) a possibility? I know it's expensive, it it is a possibility. Just another word of caution, Zippers DOES NOT like it when customers get impatient and start swapping things out to try and find a solution. I swapped my stuff out, and changed my bike over from Marelli to Delphi to try and get it to run better (I had the same sort of tuning issues as you). This really pissed them off and started my whole non communication problem.

Keep us posted.

Mark

[Twolanerider]

TwoLane,

Are you running the Zippers Throttle Body as well? I ask because if this situation is NOT resolved before your trip, is swapping back to the OEM ECM, and getting a dyno tune (I know,....more money) a possibility? I know it's expensive, it it is a possibility. Just another word of caution, Zippers DOES NOT like it when customers get impatient and start swapping things out to try and find a solution. I swapped my stuff out, and changed my bike over from Marelli to Delphi to try and get it to run better (I had the same sort of tuning issues as you). This really pissed them off and started my whole non communication problem.

Keep us posted.

Mark

Mark,

Part of Zippers "103 Muscle Kit" is their 50mm throttle body, intake and mating air cleaner.  So, yes, they are on the bike.  I lost about a month from initial attempts at support to finally beginning to get support.  That did push me to a real and significant deadline for the upcoming trip.

While I'd not (or at least wouldn't see any reason to do so yet) start pulling intake components I will readily pull the T-Max off and reinstall the stock ECM to get it tuned in an attempt to make the bike ready for the trip.  In fact I'm quite sure that will have to happen as the only tuning slot in the dyno schedule between now and my departure is just a few days away.  That slot can't be missed just in case the T-Max couldn't be worked through between now and then.

If that's the case the Thundermax support efforts will simply go on hiatus.  I've suggested what seems a very fair idea to them that could be pursued later.  Or we could simply go through the steps they want me to go through, but do them later.  Quite frankly they'll probably spend more of their time dancing me through step after step after step then if they'd accept "Plan B" and spin it themselves for a half day for a tune.

I've got no issue with spending the dollars for a dyno tune to make the trip.  It's unfortunate that such a redundant expense might have become necessary. But it is what is.  If I need to I need to and it's on me.  Zippers can't (or shouldn't) get upset at my willingness to bear that expense when it only gains more flexibility and time to address the problem. 

It would also isolate the tuning and ignition from the engine.  If it still pings like a b*tch with the stock ECM and a good tune via SERT or Power Commander then an entirely different discussion would begin.  That is, quite frankly, information worth having and information I'd pay to learn. 

The only reason the company supplying all the parts (Zippers) would not want that information to be in the consumers' hands would be if they were concerned about the larger supplied parts collection also.  I've seen no indication of that on their part.  But I can't say that I wouldn't mind isolating the engine build from the ECM/Ignition system just to know for sure.  It would be information very much worth having in hand to address reservations that might come during further pursuit of the tuning problem (if that's where it is).  Quite frankly there is also no reason to be a puppy chasing it's tail round and round on an issue if you can find out relatively easy whether or not the tail is actually the problem.

[Ironhorse]

Part of Zippers "103 Muscle Kit" is their 50mm throttle body, intake and mating air cleaner.  So, yes, they are on the bike. 

While I'd not (or at least wouldn't see any reason to do so yet) start pulling intake components I will readily pull the T-Max off and reinstall the stock ECM to get it tuned in an attempt to make the bike ready for the trip. 

Don,

I too have the Zippers 50mm TB, as it came with their Marelli Conversion kit. One of the things I noticed on mine is that the Zippers TB DOES NOT have a MAP sensor, at least mine did not. I ended up zip tying the MAP sensor hook up out of the way. Back when I was able to speak with Zippers Tech support, it was explained to me that the way their set up is designed, the T-MAX ECM does not use a MAP sensor, so even if someone were to keep their OEM TB, the MAP sensor is somehow taken out of the loop when using the T-MAX ECM. Now I may be all wrong about that, so you better double check before your just install the OEM ECM and head out for a dyno tune. I'd hate to see you run into more headaches as the OEM ECM looks for a MAP sensor that is not on the Zippers TB.

Did you see the other posting about Zippers no longer being a site tech supported vendor?

Mark

[Twolanerider]

Don,

I too have the Zippers 50mm TB, as it came with their Marelli Conversion kit. One of the things I noticed on mine is that the Zippers TB DOES NOT have a MAP sensor, at least mine did not. I ended up zip tying the MAP sensor hook up out of the way. Back when I was able to speak with Zippers Tech support, it was explained to me that the way their set up is designed, the T-MAX ECM does not use a MAP sensor, so even if someone were to keep their OEM TB, the MAP sensor is somehow taken out of the loop when using the T-MAX ECM. Now I may be all wrong about that, so you better double check before your just install the OEM ECM and head out for a dyno tune. I'd hate to see you run into more headaches as the OEM ECM looks for a MAP sensor that is not on the Zippers TB.

Did you see the other posting about Zippers no longer being a site tech supported vendor?

Mark

Hmmm.....  Their intake and throttle bodies are sold/described as working with or without the TMax ECM.  On the "103 Muscle Kit" package, of which my intake and throttle body were a part, the TMax is specifically mentioned but described as something you can add to the party.

That being so the intake and throttle body would have to be able to swing both ways.  In my case the sensor is installed and the new intake has it in exactly the place you'd expect to find it.

Have no idea why your intake wouldn't have provision for it.  Is the Marelli conversion package you got dedicated specifically to a conversion from M&M to Thundermax?  Or is it just conversion from M&M to Delphi or anything that would work in Delphi's place?

If it is designed as a package to specifically and only convert from M&M to Thundermax that would seem to acccount for sensor no longer being needed.  Even then, however, it seems odd that they'd build two entirely different intakes when one would suffice by just plugging the hole with the existing sensor (whether it's used or not).

[SBB]

OK, it has been two days!

Has anyone heard from Jim?

Thousands of miles from home and his bike quits.

Anybody heard what the outcome was?

 

[Twolanerider]

OK, it has been two days!

Has anyone heard from Jim?

Thousands of miles from home and his bike quits.

Anybody heard what the outcome was?

 

No PM to me.  And nothing here in the public thread either.  Hopefully that means he got going and simply is enjoying the trip (because the likely alternative is the problem was really ugly and he's so pissed off at anything Harley right now even logging in here makes his stomach turn).