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[HarlyFan]

I know I posted on this but it seems to be gone?? Any ways I get a bit hackled when some one says the T-max and the DTT are very close. In fact that may appear to be the truth but fact is they are not close.  I could write pages on it but,... those that have the t-max and like it great.  We have installed both and the bottom line is we have installed and sold over 160 DTT's since first of the year. Approx 60% we installed, I have had customers switch from the t-max as they wanted something that they had FULL access to the entire program, customer support. We will give you any all you need, have a issue that you just cannot get handled call us, if I am unable to help you over the phone zip the data log and current map and send it to me. I will then call you up and we will go over the files while on the phone and you can make the changes of I will and re send it to you.  We have a large amount of calls forward direct from DTT to help with customer service as we have gotten so good at tuning them.

I do not think there is a system that is the "perfect" set up, but from the ones I have used I think the DTT is as close as you can get. The new tcfIII is improved over the II system. It will now log a min of 60 minutes of data, and has some other minor changes to it. At this point there has not been one single bike that we could not tune with it. That includes basic stock bikes to 131 inch engines with huge cams, high compression, wild pipe set up as well. All have tuned very good, in fact we did one with some pipes that I never though would tune well.  DTT is working on another new version that will be an auto tuning ign set up as well. Look for it towards the end of the year.


We are able to tune a bike with a new build to a very good Afr curve in less than 40 miles of riding. When we do builds we will build the customer a base map, most are within 13.2-13.8 Afr within 30 miles.

I think the biggest issues with the T-max is lack of user control and the need for a extremely close base map. A dtt is a alpha n table based system and will work with everything we have tried thus far. and with the amount we do we see tons of different combos. Nothing has gone bad so far, and we have put together some kits that a t-max would not handle, we tried and tried. Pulled the system installed a DTT and we are up and running with no issues at all.

This is not to bash a certain product as we do not make either one , but then again Zippers does not make theirs either so that may be some of the problems with getting good tech help from them. As far as the DTT goes and being hard to tune or the soft ware is difficult??  It is laid out in very basic instructions , that are provided.  The biggest thing with the DTT is reading the data logs. You look at them and you will see where you have to change something that the auto tune is not getting.  As well many do not ride the bike correctly on both systems to allow it time to tune that area. You have to ride in that area not ride through it.  We still tune many with the t-max system and from what I see many think they can just go out and ride it well to a certain point but riding in a problem area allows the system to see what is going on and then make a changes. If you rip through that area it may only get to see a very small portion of the problem and not be able to make enough changes.

 Here is a example of how well the DTT will work. Bike is a 06 ultra with a 26 Andrews cam 95 inch kit and slip ons from Harley.  That seems simple enough right?? how about we tuned the bike in less than 80 miles. Now that is more miles than normal,... but the catch is that he has a trailer. We did the base tune with out trailer, then hooked it up loaded the bike down and the trailer and did some more testing.  I was surprised that the map was not off by very much in fact less than 4 % either way.   The customer was planning a trip to Alaska so we spent extra time to ensure that the map was spot on. We really did not need to as it turned out. He rode the bike up and back putting on a tad over 4500 miles on his entire trip. When he got back the map needed only one area of change and it was less than 1.5% the area was in the upper rpm range under extreme load.  I asked if he had any running issues . He just smiled and said the bike ran like a top and had never run better. Now he was a race tuner guy first the local hd dealer could not get it right , then he tried the t-max with the trailer again no go. It was not able to make the changes needed.  The trailer is a tough tune for any one on a dyno , first one we had done for the trailer.  I was impressed.  Now the t-max did fine on his bike without trailer. 

Can someone tell me who the DTT is manufactured by. DTT is short for???

[Fired00d]

Can someone tell me who the DTT is manufactured by. DTT is short for???

Daytona Twin Tec. Click on the name to visit their website.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
  

[grc]

Can someone tell me who the DTT is manufactured by. DTT is short for???

Daytona Twin-Tec

http://www.daytona-twintec.com/TCFI.html

Jerry

PS.  If you have a little time to spare, wander around their site for awhile reading the FAQ's and claims for the system, and even the manual.  Very refreshing in that they don't pull any punches about the expertise needed and the time required for install and tuning, and they don't make outlandish claims about the DTT doing everything but cure the common cold automatically. 

[Deuce Bigelow]

Well, to try this again, while keeping it technical, I hope this helps some understand the TMAX a little better:

The TMAX timing is set from the base map. Base maps are available for specific builds, hopefully your bike is in that list.  Base maps go through a lot of testing, and variables do exist, although minor.  The autotune is designed to follow the AFR either in the map, or one that YOU create. It is programmed from the software, into the ECM, and that drives the bikes parameters. The same with timing. If you want to change it, you can.  People do not understand and overrate the TMAX as a cure all, a literal autotuner, fixing whatever you think is wrong. It is not, and does not claim to be a repair device.  However, the Maps are what drives the device, and is chosen by YOU the rider for the bike and combination you have. Again, the Autotune is designed to follow the pre programmed map. The Autotune part of the TMAX compensates automatically for different conditions, variables like altitude, density, temperature. It adjusts accordingly to make sure that it always follows the targets that are pre-set in the MAPS.  This is what sets the TMAX apart, maps and autotuning as described.

The majority do not need to tweak the TMAX install at all, since Zippers did use each element of a build to design the MAP on each combination they have made available.   IF your build is different, for example, you decided on a larger ThrottleBody, or an exhaust different than the selections available on existing MAPS, why, it is very clear that one of their maps do not make an exact match to your stuff.  THEREFORE, just like most other devices, PC, DTT etc, you can use the DYNO to exact the performance from that build.  

Bottom line is that the TMAX autotunes to the data it is provided with, and compensates thousands of times per second to make sure the afr, timing, trims, etc are on track at all times in any environmental condition, (assumming you are using wide band sensors and autotune enabled).  

It will not tune an engine automatically. That is where I see many thinking it does. And there is resulting confusion.  Zippers and Thunderheart actually make the units, and test them extensively. Too many people start thinking this device does more than I explained. Now, even with a good BASE MAP, if you are not confidant that the MAP is doing all it can for your particular build, you can put it on a dyno. The only thing your dyno will do, is confirm AFR with a sniffer, (but it does not need that due to its internal and 02Sensors), and your torque and HP readouts. Making adjustments to the timing and AFRS on the TMAT can make a difference, if you change them, IF you realized a gain on the DYNO with changed settings. So, maybe you can tweak 1hp more, or advance or retard timing a hair due to the differences in BASE MAPS and your bike idiosyncrasies. Anyway the changes now can be saved as your personal map.  Is it worth it? To me, the only thing a DYNO does is give me run numbers, not used for tuning sessions. But like I said, IF I felt there was more, I could use the Dyno and play with the TMAX.

The adjustments could not be simpler on the TMAT, and all regions of tuning are accessible in the advanced format, normally a trained user application. If you don't know tuning, you can make mistakes with the advanced, and that would be a very bad thing. But now, with the new software, the consumer version, you can access individual timing pages too.   With the Zippers product, IF your build has a Zippers Map Number, you don't need a dyno investment. And writing maps is best left to a professional that can work in all dimensions of tuning at the same time.  Those are a very rare breed indeed, but there are a few out there, and a few on this board I am sure, or at least connections enough to understand the writing of maps.  Because the TMAT has the auto-tune(or autofollowing feature) the map writing side is sophisticated. But writing a map on a SERT is not an easy thing on its own either. Most dealers that have invested in a Dyno will want to sell that time. Common sense. And then, it would come in handy IF there is no build map for what you have.  But then, you can choose from a variety of tuning devices, Dyno time would be a requirement in any case.

Finally, Zippers has a problem with customer relations, more so when they get busy. Their product has been an attractive option for thousands of riders, and they can barely keep up.  I am confidant they are working on those solutions, but they do not react as quick as many of us would like, no doubt.  It is not a reflection on the product, thank goodness, but rather that customer servicing thing. I get mixed feelings when I know they have an amazing product, and not enough staff to cover the bases.

Rhino

are you saying that the Tmax DOES autotune timing?

if so, please explaing how?
we know it uses the wideband O2 sensors for monitoring AFR, what does it use to monitor timing?
the factory ECM uses the spark plugs to detect detonation and retard timing, but the Tmax doesn't.
I was even told by Zippers that it doesn't detect detonation, like the factory ECM.

don't get me wrong, I love my Tmax, it's working great for me!
you post, even though it was long and explained allot, really didn't get into any detail on what the Tmax ACTUALLY does and does not do......

[Rhino]

The system uses an alpha n system, in over 2000 block points. It constantly monitors all engine parameters to make sure that the MAP in the ECM on the bike is programmed to control the AFR's and timing, the simple version stated, which is that it reads the information from the O2 Sensors and Throttle degrees.  It does not autotune the timing curves. The timing points have been created by Zippers when writing the MAPs.  As you can see in the software, the timing curves are adjustable in the end user program.  In most cases this works very well. Reasons to change timing yourself could be due to your location, whereas the fuel may be a blend with ethanol. I do know that Zippers is on the max edge for performance on their maps.  But like I said earlier, you can play a little if you think there is more to get from the motor, but it won't be much.  The Zippers system is quite sophisticated, measuring more parameters and providing more adjustability than any other tuning device in an easy format. There are others of course, and again, require Dyno time extensively. 

Now, as I said the timing does not autotune, but it does change over the course of a ride, to match all of the input from the rider to make sure that in any given throttle position, and RPM, the right timing event is being sent to the engine from the ECM, which gathers all the input data at millisecond speeds. It is all integrated into those 2000 block combinations, available for every 256RPM and from 0 to 100 degrees of throttle movement. BTW, don't confuse this with percentages of throttle like other devices. You may have seen tape put on a throttle to see where the percentage is for idle to full throttle, but the Zippers unit actually reads the speicifc throttle positions in the software screen, and generally, it goes from 11 degrees to 88 or so. You can move the throttle while linked and monitoring, and actually see the bands move. This is one of the data links that insures a very accurate plot.

As to my explanations, and your inquiry below, can you clarify a bit? You stated that you neeed to know what the TMAX does and does not do. If not answered above, could you try and give me an example?  I know it does not have a timing retard that monitors detonation. The device is not automatic in this regard. I do know that the Harley systems stock ECM has sort of that feature, but works on narrow band sensors only when in closed loop, whcih is only when steady state cruising. I think, and this is only my guess, that it is there for EPA compliance rather than performance. Zippers is a performance device, and I would think that they do not want anything that could take control of the motor, and retard the timing automatically, becasue that would reduce power output.

Another item might be the AFR vs Temp. For example, when idling a bit more fuel is added, and if temp rises, it adds fuel also to assist cooling. These are done in all of the underlying tables, and some of the key ones are visible when cruising through the tuning tree.  And if you look at some of the other screens, you can see a lot of other parameters that control the bikes operational characteristics. It all works together.  If you had a chance to see the advanced version, it incorporates numerous adjustments also, like front and rear AFR adjustments, Rear fuel trim capability, and 37 other things individually if you like.   But the bottom line is, that if your bike matches one of the maps that Zippers is offering at no charge by the way, you are extremely close.  It is all of those parameters that need to be set if one goes outside the box of normal builds, whereas, like I said before, you need to have a special map written.  And it uses a dyno.

One of our members here was making mention of a bike towing a trailer. But the Dyno was running just the bike, and when the trailer created that extra drag, the tuning was off. So after a few tries, he did get it spot on. But here we see that a dyno was required a few times. And if you were wanting to do that with Zippers, you are ahead a bit, becasue you already have the BASE MAP, and the only thing you would be needing to change would be the timing to offset that massive additional drag.  And it actually can be done without a dyno by changing the timing curves a bit. Well, now we get into more detail. IF you are looking to use a Dyno to correct something like this up front, it is best to make sure the shop has what is known as an Eddy Current Brake dyno. I am not familiar with all of the brands, but DynoJet has this as an option, along with SuperFlo. It is an additional electronic drag brake that simulates uphill road conditions, rider weights etc in an adjustable manner.  Hope this helps

Rhino
 

are you saying that the Tmax DOES autotune timing?

if so, please explaing how?
we know it uses the wideband O2 sensors for monitoring AFR, what does it use to monitor timing?
the factory ECM uses the spark plugs to detect detonation and retard timing, but the Tmax doesn't.
I was even told by Zippers that it doesn't detect detonation, like the factory ECM.

don't get me wrong, I love my Tmax, it's working great for me!
you post, even though it was long and explained allot, really didn't get into any detail on what the Tmax ACTUALLY does and does not do......

[Deuce Bigelow]

Rhino,

Thanks for the clairification.

I thought that I knew it didn't autotune timing, but on the other hand, It wouldn't supprise me if I was wrong!
everything else was explained perfectly by you.

Thanks again!
 

[Unbalanced]

One clarification needs to be made for the SERT / Stock ECM the knock sensor has been around since before the narrow bands.  The eitms or single cylinder shutdown was an added item in the 07 releases in 4.50 and 4.62.    It was also said that the dealer could turn this feature on 1 time for free if you did not have a race tuner.  I have never enabled it, but that is how it was proposed to me.

[TN]

okay i'm on the road and my wideband  sensor fails on my tmax. does it simply revert back to open loop operation? and it should indicate an error code in speedo.


thanks

TN

[Rhino]

I should have a good answer on this sometime today. I won't assume anything till I hear back from Zippers directly.  It is a good question, I recall another incident on the board whereas someone towed their bike a long way due to a similar issue, and it is not right.  In the meantime, I will be going back to the manual, to make sure this is not already addressed.  When I travel, I simply carry a disc and my USB cable, takes no room.  Carrying a laptop is not feasible.  A new sensor, if determined to be bad is very easy to find on the road.
Rhino

okay i'm on the road and my wideband  sensor fails on my tmax. does it simply revert back to open loop operation? and it should indicate an error code in speedo.


thanks

TN

[Twolanerider]

okay i'm on the road and my wideband  sensor fails on my tmax. does it simply revert back to open loop operation? and it should indicate an error code in speedo.


thanks

TN

Kitzmiller answered this question very specifically once saying it automatically and simply reverted back in case of a sensor failure.  Since early on he also told me the system took advantage of the ion sensor and measured for spark knock I thought it best to check it out though.  It did revert.

[Deuce Bigelow]

Kitzmiller answered this question very specifically once saying it automatically and simply reverted back in case of a sensor failure.  Since early on he also told me the system took advantage of the ion sensor and measured for spark knock I thought it best to check it out though.  It did revert.

but it does not use the ion sensing or measure for spark knock..

[Twolanerider]

but it does not use the ion sensing or measure for spark knock..

If it measures for spark knock it must only be a counting tabulation to keep track of that which is created  .

[Rhino]

Interestingly, after talking with JohnK at Zippers, we did realize the following. IF you have a sensor failure, just one of them, it could skew the readings, since the remaining sensor still is telling the ECM it is running in CLOSED LOOP and will try and compensate with autotune. Maybe. One of the engineers may already have the answer for sure, but I am going to try another method locally and find out.

If both sensors fail, then it would revert back to open loop.   So, what if one sensor fails? The bike MAY run like crap, if at all. The question becomes one of the ECM ability to identify a failure of one side. Does it? Can it?  I will find out, although its running condition may make it obvious.  Zippers has not seen a total 100% failure of a sensor, other than clipped wiring or other connector fault, but have seen partial reading problems, so the running condition would not be so much affected immediately, but gradually.

So my mission is to disconnect one sensor while at idle and see the result of both running, and on the module, to see if it records an open loop condition, or stays in closed loop, and tries to adjust.  One thing I will do, is make sure I do a read of the current map and save as current date, so I can reload it with all of its offsets back to the way it was before this experiment.    For my use, I will also do a monitor log while attempting this too, so the symptoms can be reviewed.  Then I can post the result in the next few days.

Remember, if you are linked, and bike is not running, but batt on, the sensor F & R AFR's will default to about 19.36, showing that the heater is operational, and sensors are normal. 

Zippers has seen a variety of scenarios regarding sensor failure.  One was interesting, if you are putting your bike into a trailer, the bike center section runs very close to the frame, and if the sensor connector was below the frame, it could damage the connector. So make sure your wiring is placed properly.  Others included dragging wire, totally bent up sensor leads from wrenching on the sensor body rather than the nut, reversed leads, melted harness from wrapping it on a cylinder... But not one sensor actually failed 100%, shutting off like a light switch, except for outside influences like shown above.

When the new firmware is released by the way, Diagnostics for TMAX WILL be readable from Speedo. How nice is that?

Well, all I can do is talk with assumptions until I get around to trying this test.  But it does bring up an interesting scenario.  If you are on the road and this odd failure does occur, what does one do?  Disconnect the other lead and run in closed loop?  That would be fine in any event also, because the ECM remembers all of the current offsets, and will stay in that condition.  Short of carryiong around the laptop and cable and software, the obvious is carry the disk and cable, and find a laptop. Fortunately in this day and age, laptops abound everywhere. And frankly this may not be a dealer issue, just any place, even a kinkos to see wazzup. And if a failure of a sensor is detected, what is involved, finding a VW dealer and getting a Bosch replacement? Not too difficult.   

Bikes can fail for 1,000 reasons, but the more we know, the better we become with diagnostics. That is one of the great things about this board, arming us with enough info to help ourselves out more and more.

Rhino

okay i'm on the road and my wideband  sensor fails on my tmax. does it simply revert back to open loop operation? and it should indicate an error code in speedo.


thanks

TN

[Twolanerider]

So my mission is to disconnect one sensor while at idle and see the result of both running, and on the module, to see if it records an open loop condition, or stays in closed loop, and tries to adjust.  One thing I will do, is make sure I do a read of the current map and save as current date, so I can reload it with all of its offsets back to the way it was before this experiment.   

Ronnie, when I was still farting around with the red bike and its TM and the answer coming from the company seemed potentially contradictory I tried exactly that one evening.  Upon unhooking the sensor the idle got rougher for, perhaps, 10 seconds or so.  Then surged up and down withing an approximately 200 RPM range for another few seconds.  The smoothed back out right where it should be.  When done it had reverted to open loop. 

I didn't check it for repeatability.  But the one time it made the change in response to a failure (disconnect) of one sensor.  Starting the engine with the same sensor unplugged to begin with also showed an open loop condition the one time I tried it.

[Rhino]

Interesting. Seems like when you disconnected one sensor, it continued to try and tune it. When it smoothed, it must have found the correction for the (missing) sensor.  Must have taken a little time to revert back to open loop when it discovered it was missing. Wonder if the autotune tried to correct it, and when it found it was trying to correct outside of a known parameter due to the missing sensor, it then switched to open. Or for some other reason I do not know..  So I guess my test will be to disconnect at a cruise config, let it try and fix itself, then shut it off.

Did you have an opportunity to do it at anything other than idle? I think if done a a higher rpm, it may take it way off, but still rideable, and then rear up with problems at restart.

If it did revert to open loop, then perhaps trying to restart the bike would not be possible. Especially if in a mode other than idle when it occurs.  Perhaps it would have converted to open loop, but not before it skewed the settings for that one cylinder.  Worth a try, but I'll have my good map handy to put back in, and I will also do a monitor log to see the results.  Hmmmm.  Wonder if the software allows activating closed loop with one sensor out of the 'loop'.  Wonder if it makes a difference to the software if the front or rear is disconnected independently too.   Oh boy, another experiment...  This started when I saw one of our members had a shutdown, and no restart due to a bad sensor.  Lots of trouble, and no information. Perhaps this will be one of those things to keep in the brain as a troubleshooter in the event it happens to one of us that use.......it.



Rhino

Ronnie, when I was still farting around with the red bike and its TM and the answer coming from the company seemed potentially contradictory I tried exactly that one evening.  Upon unhooking the sensor the idle got rougher for, perhaps, 10 seconds or so.  Then surged up and down withing an approximately 200 RPM range for another few seconds.  The smoothed back out right where it should be.  When done it had reverted to open loop. 

I didn't check it for repeatability.  But the one time it made the change in response to a failure (disconnect) of one sensor.  Starting the engine with the same sensor unplugged to begin with also showed an open loop condition the one time I tried it.