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[mnm327]

How is it, that Harley has hit their limits with an air cooled engine at 110ci?  I don't understand the logic you guys are using here?  First of all S&S, over the last few years, has been producing 110 plus engines, haven't seen too many complaints there?  Secondly, Big Dogs are using a 113ci, again, don't see to many complaints from their customers. 

I've owned a few Harleys in my day, and my most recent trade-in (had it for just a little over a year) was an '05 CVO V-rod, which I traded for the '07 CVO Springer.  Now mind you the Vrod was fast, really, really fast, and that was fun!  But even though it looked somewhat like a Harley, and felt somewhat like a Harley, it just wasn't the same.  I don't ever see my self going back to a water cooled engine, unless I'm left with no choice.  I will always prefer having a big V-Twin engine that sounds and looks like a Harley should.  V-rod riders don't take me wrong, the V-rod is an awesome machine and the Orange and Black CVO paint job was on of the best I've seen, but the V-rod just did not feel nor sound like a Harley should.

And as for the MOCO being on their last legs, well, I'm sure there are some "Davidson's" out there that would tell you they've been hearing that for a long, long, long time.  Somewhere in the neighborhood of 105 years, give or take a year of so?

Congratulations Harley Davidson, for make the naysayers wrong for the past 104 no I mean 105 years!

If you can't stand the heat, get off the bike.  I hear Honda's running a stick it to the "Gaijin" promotion.

Ride on, MNM327......

[LabRat]

Unbalanced,

I'm hoping that some of the issues have been worked out in the later runs and while I was hoping to sit tight on getting her to breath better with new pips and AC. Looks like that might have to come sooner than expected.

The fact that this is the gathering place for CVO owners is exactly why I came here No better place to find out information about an upcoming purchase or learn how to mod your ride. Did the same thing before I bought my Suzi Boulevard. I wanted a unique bike, the bat wings finally grew on me and loved the chrome on the CVOs. Oh, yeah, the wife wanted the heated seat. The 110" was really just the icing on the cake. I just want to make sure that I wouldn't be better off just modding a standard ultra with new paint, chrome, etc. I rode an '06 Ultra with the 88" motor and pretty much stock. I had to admit that my Suzi had more umph, so the 110" seemed like the answer.

Thanks for the concise summary of the issues.

[greglyon]

Labrat,

If I were looking in as a lurker this is what comes to mind to me of the issues people with the 110's are seeing.

Quite a few people had head leaks due to 1 of 2 reasons.

1.  Harley put out a bad head gasket and later once the bikes were delivered figured this out and came out with a much better gasket.

2.  Harley had a run of a few bad cylinder heads and has  been making good on them.  Although some have been slower than othters, and a thread here shows this issue for one guy screaminegul07, evilroadking, and mofo110 come to mind could be the wrong people, but I think they are the ones.

Harley did not clearance the rocker boxes well enough from the factory on many of the 110 CVO bikes.  Of the bikes making noise from the rockerbox the vast majority of them have been made it right by the dealers/Moco with a little aggravation and complaining. 

Crank run out.    There have been a few of these around, where harley did not want you and I to go into the motor, for whatever the MoCo's Reason.   If you look at totals produced this is a small minority, you have to remember that with a site like this you will hear more,  because of the type of draw this site brings.   110's were only put in the CVO's and here you have a gathering of the cvo's.

Heat issues.    Resolved easily with some new pipes / open air cleaner and a GOOD TUNE.

Honestly while the issues have been annoying my bike runs good and yes I had to have new rings put in, I had to have new head gaskets twice, and I had the rocker boxes clearanced at the same time.   Since the replacement of the 2nd head gaskets (the new ones) I have not had an issue and my bike runs really well.

Observation,
While I am not proponent for the fire-wire throttle nor the abs brakes i would suggest to you to get a later model run of the 07's there are still quite a few around if you go and look.   The only saving attribute that I really liked about the 08's is the full tourpak.   I was one of the lucky ones to buy the Anniversay 100 edition.  Wow special, right up until harley over produced it after they said limited numbers.   Chromed out the first one in Orlando, hopped up the motor before it ever left the dealership and then there were bazillions of them everywhere.   While it was mine and while I outfitted it to suit me, It just wasn't really unique.

Good luck with whatever you decide on Labrat.

Excellent summary.  Puts the issue in proper perspective.  ABS will be debated for a long time but what is your concern about the fly by wire throttle control?

[Chief]

How is it, that Harley has hit their limits with an air cooled engine at 110ci?  I don't understand the logic you guys are using here?  First of all S&S, over the last few years, has been producing 110 plus engines, haven't seen too many complaints there?  Secondly, Big Dogs are using a 113ci, again, don't see to many complaints from their customers. 

I've owned a few Harleys in my day, and my most recent trade-in (had it for just a little over a year) was an '05 CVO V-rod, which I traded for the '07 CVO Springer.  Now mind you the Vrod was fast, really, really fast, and that was fun!  But even though it looked somewhat like a Harley, and felt somewhat like a Harley, it just wasn't the same.  I don't ever see my self going back to a water cooled engine, unless I'm left with no choice.  I will always prefer having a big V-Twin engine that sounds and looks like a Harley should.  V-rod riders don't take me wrong, the V-rod is an awesome machine and the Orange and Black CVO paint job was on of the best I've seen, but the V-rod just did not feel nor sound like a Harley should.

And as for the MOCO being on their last legs, well, I'm sure there are some "Davidson's" out there that would tell you they've been hearing that for a long, long, long time.  Somewhere in the neighborhood of 105 years, give or take a year of so?

Congratulations Harley Davidson, for make the naysayers wrong for the past 104 no I mean 105 years!

If you can't stand the heat, get off the bike.  I hear Honda's running a stick it to the "Gaijin" promotion.

Ride on, MNM327......

The biggest difference between HD and the other engine makers out there can be summed up in 3 letters, EPA. The EPA is forcing HD to lean out their bikes to incredibly lean mixtures in order to meet all the emission criteria. The other engine manyfacturers haven't had to do this, yet. HD is between a rock and something even harder, the Federal Government. We yell about hot motors, but the gov't can shut them down. Guess who wins this one?

[evilroadking]

Chief,,

You took the words right out of my mouth.. Your right EPA related.

Thanks,,,

[evilroadking]

Unbalanced,

You sure hit on a few of the issues Harely is having with the 07's, Glad to see you admit you have encountered a few yourself. I think the gentleman inquireing on the 07, and 08's was more interested in dependabiltiy, and you answred him well. Keep up the good work.

Also, yoiu may want to do a little homework on the crank issue,, bigger problem then you think.

Best Regards to Ya,

Evil

[Hoist!]

Unbalanced,

I'm hoping that some of the issues have been worked out in the later runs and while I was hoping to sit tight on getting her to breath better with new pips and AC. Looks like that might have to come sooner than expected.

The fact that this is the gathering place for CVO owners is exactly why I came here No better place to find out information about an upcoming purchase or learn how to mod your ride. Did the same thing before I bought my Suzi Boulevard. I wanted a unique bike, the bat wings finally grew on me and loved the chrome on the CVOs. Oh, yeah, the wife wanted the heated seat. The 110" was really just the icing on the cake. I just want to make sure that I wouldn't be better off just modding a standard ultra with new paint, chrome, etc. I rode an '06 Ultra with the 88" motor and pretty much stock. I had to admit that my Suzi had more umph, so the 110" seemed like the answer.

Thanks for the concise summary of the issues.

Welcome aboard LabRat! You certainly picked the right screen name for a 110" owner! As I stated earlier, these things can be taken care of. Barring the engine grenading itself (which gets you a new engine anyway), there are many mods that can be made to make them stronger, more reliable, and better performing. HD has issues with new releases all the time. And strokers are more finicky than smaller engines too. If you get one, be committed to setting it up right. If you don't understand the bike, and are going to rely on the dealers to take care of it, you're gonna get what you get. And that might include a boat load of grief. But if you get into it and understand the issues, you can direct the correct course of action. Then you get what you want, instead of getting what you get. Good luck man, and enjoy the site!

Hoist!

[Rhino]

I think that Harley does make a fine product. And I do not know anyone who has left a Harley in any kind of a true 'stock' configuaration.  They are designed to be messed with anyway.  It may come to the point when the bike will stay closer to stock becasue the systems are getting more complicated, but for now, I think that is all part of the Harley allure, to change it all at home and personalize it. That is what it's about.  On other manufactureres, what is available? Pipes and an airclearner and some pretty chrome.  But what manufacturere really has a bike that allows deep engine work and other functional performance mods as intense as Harley allows? None, not really.  Not like the Harley.

And the EPA has gotten tough on the Motorcycle industry, not just Harley. When Harley gets closer to EPA acceptance, what will happen?  It will be almost impossible to get into the motors. So, on my 110, I am happy, the motor issues are not really overwhelming, but more of a nuisance, and fixable, if you don't like the way it runs.  But IMHO, that's what its all about.  The non CVO 96 inch bikes? Kits are flying out the window, and it was a given that changes will be made.

And Harley may be limiited to 110, (but I dont agree), however there are a lot of aftermarket to change this.  

In the big picture, MOCO will be forced by C.A.R.B. to make changes, but there will always be that untouched racing performance segment that will be free and clear of these regulations.  And I do not know if these 49 states are ready to implement clean air on motorcycles on an individual basis. Not, erhaps not nin our generation anyway. So whats the problem?  I don't see one, and after I get off this board, I get on my bike, and ride down the street, thinking about the thousands of cop bikes out there and their riders, that are hard core Harley, sanctioned by all the states that do so.

Rhino(jusramblinonenjoyingmyride)

[bc]

OK, been a lurker for a few weeks, trying to learn as much as  possible before making a decision on an '08 CVO Ultra and I have to admit, some of the threads have me worried that it might not be the right choice. I'm coming from the metric world, love my water cooled engine, but my cruiser just doesn't do what I want, so the only tourer that I really like are the Ultras. I love the CVOs, granted liked the 07's better than the '08 colors, but since I want new, it has to be an '08.

But with all the trouble some people are having with the 110" motor, I'm beginning to thing that I'd be better off with a 96" on the standard Ultras.

So what's the deal? Are there just some squeaky wheels out there making noise? Did Evilroadking get a lemon or is he part of a bigger problem?

Thanks,

Some of the so-called issues with the 110 are basic twin cam design stuff that you also get with a 96, including crank runout and other bottom end design trade offs (like no timkens and chain-driven cams), heat (to a lesser extent, but all twin cams run very hot), small ports, factory ECM maps, etc. etc.  Fact is, some of it is fixed in perfectly usable fashion when you do the mods that most people do anyway, like pipes, AC, and tune.  

The moco has addressed some bottom end stuff like early issues with cam tensioners - the current design may not be the best for a high performance engine, but work just fine.  They have also made evolutionary improvements to pistons and heads, oil pumps, transmissions, electrical & electronics systems.  HD's paint is excellent, their chrome is better than the metric bikes' by and large, etc. etc.  

I don't regard some issues as any different than any manufacturer's, i.e., HD has some chit get through production like anyone else.  I ran my Deuce for 6 years without a single problem, absolutely none.  On the other hand I had a Honda Valkyrie that developed a case leak - on an engine design where the case halves are supposed to be a permanent assembly.  That one required getting creative with some long head bolts from a Yamaha tour bike, of all things, to provide extra support as the case was being over-stressed in normal operation.  I wouldn't lose sleep over things like crank runout problems.  Not that it isn't a serious problem if you have it, but the likelihood that you will is loooowwww.  Again, who doesn't have problems sometimes?  My 2005 F150 crapped out a couple of months ago when an injector failed.  And, when I took it into my local Ford dealer - who is also a Honda and Suzuki dealer - there was a long line of metrics parked in the service bay.  

IMHO, the root cause of people bitching about HD is pricing.  If the average big twin cost $12k instead of $16-18k (never mind the CVOs), you wouldn't hear a peep.  It creates a sense of quality entitlement.  People think "Hey, this oughtta be PERFECT for this kind of money!!!".  If it were only so!!!

bc

[evilroadking]

Rhino,

Harley used to make a fine product. In 2007 the EPA has changed that. It's a whole new picture going forward. Based on what i have read here and other forums, If you buy a Harley now days, dont even waste your time breaking it in, Do your engine mods right off the bat and get that motor running cooler then the EPA fashion it comes in. I just read a blog claiming the extreme heat these engine are running at from the factory is causing aluminum block warpage and hence we here about blown head gaskets and crank run out. The blog claims damage is done during break in. This may hold water and may not, but it makes sense and it may be the fix for the folks buying new models.

Maybe the break in period is the Killer??? Another topic to beat up on......

[Unbalanced]

Unbalanced,

You sure hit on a few of the issues Harely is having with the 07's, Glad to see you admit you have encountered a few yourself. I think the gentleman inquireing on the 07, and 08's was more interested in dependabiltiy, and you answred him well. Keep up the good work.

Also, yoiu may want to do a little homework on the crank issue,, bigger problem then you think.

Best Regards to Ya,

Evil

Evil,

Unfortunately it is probably not a task I am going to undertake unless I am forced to.   I had the crank run out checked and I was good to go, thank goodness.   I will most likely be checking it again tomorrow to see if there have been any changes to the runout now that I have another 8k miles on the bike since the last check.   

You keep eluding to bottom end issues, and it might be helpful to share a bit of information with me even if not publically as it maybe enough that I can go get some answers if beyond the crank / bearings I know what I am looking for or asking specifically about.    Dealers being told not to open up the engines and just crate them and ship them back is a bit intriguing to me, but without more information I can't ask a friend to ask a friend ya know.

The problem is while we are seeing a few on the site and hearing of others at dealers, I have to wonder what the percentage of catastrophic failures really is vs. number of bikes produced / upgraded to 110.   I have a feeling the number is low, but Harley is using them to figure things out, without the motors being tainted by outside interference.   

Help me here sooner is much better than later and maybe we can shed some light on this if it is possible,

-harry

[skreminegul07]

Perception is everything.  There are issues and will always be issues, but how you handle them is what matters.  I have an 07 SERK aka AMF anniversary edition with all the oil leaks.  Service, parts availability and communcication is horrible.  My first failure was on the first day when the headlight switch went bad.  It's been downhill from there. 

Please tell me how to fix an oil leak in the VSS sensor in the transmission with after market upgrade parts?  How can I improve the performance of an o ring?  The case needs to be replaced and HD won't do it until they keep my bike for weeks while they try every other part from least expensive on up.  BTW, I'm still waiting on the rear cylinder for the other oil leak.

The heat issue will tell over time.  Heat is what causes things to fail.

Be afraid, be very afraid!

 

[evilroadking]

Unbalanced,

I sent you a note via your emial.

[SOKOOLJ]

Unbalanced,

I'm hoping that some of the issues have been worked out in the later runs and while I was hoping to sit tight on getting her to breath better with new pips and AC. Looks like that might have to come sooner than expected.

The fact that this is the gathering place for CVO owners is exactly why I came here No better place to find out information about an upcoming purchase or learn how to mod your ride. Did the same thing before I bought my Suzi Boulevard. I wanted a unique bike, the bat wings finally grew on me and loved the chrome on the CVOs. Oh, yeah, the wife wanted the heated seat. The 110" was really just the icing on the cake. I just want to make sure that I wouldn't be better off just modding a standard ultra with new paint, chrome, etc. I rode an '06 Ultra with the 88" motor and pretty much stock. I had to admit that my Suzi had more umph, so the 110" seemed like the answer.

Thanks for the concise summary of the issues.

Don't hesitate for a minute, Brother. The only issue you should worry about now is the color of your choice..Good Luck.

[LabRat]

Don't hesitate for a minute, Brother. The only issue you should worry about now is the color of your choice..Good Luck.

Settled in on a copper canyon, now just need my brother to find one. The first one he has coming in is a white. Need to see what is on the next production run.