Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All

Author Topic: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring  (Read 22433 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bisounours

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7382

Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2007, 03:15:21 AM »

One thought : (The Day's thought ) ???

More pressure in the top : is it not a risk for the seals ?

Yet, we have a  weak point with the headgaskets ...

Jacques
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 06:37:39 AM by bisounours »
Logged
********2007 FLHTCUSE2 Red/Black**********
 
     2008 FLHTCUSE3, White Frost and Silver Mist
             
                  2011 FLHXSE2, Stage1

2013 FLHRSE5   Crushed Sapphire with Cold Fusion GraphicsCrushed Sapphire with Cold Fusion Graphics

nidan

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1416
  • Keep the breeze between your knees

    • CVO1: 02 FWDWG3 Stage IV 95 -sold
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2007, 08:10:21 AM »

I had it on my stage IV 95" WG3 , inexpensive insurance and no problems
Logged
CVO -'02 FWDWG3 Stage IV 95 -sold
'07 FLHX Stage II 103 95hp/111lbs ft
'09 FJR 1300- 145hp /99 lbs ft
2011 Mustang GT 412hp/390 lbs ft

djkak

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1278
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2007, 06:44:21 PM »

Low friction bearings don’t require the pressure that a plain bearing engine does. A pre ’07 Big Twin (pre ’06 Dyna) would probably run just fine with around 10 psi of oil pressure under the right conditions. A plain bearing engine like the VRod would experience a catastrophic failure under the same circumstances.

A little background on the H-D oiling systems: 1973 and later Shovelheads and all EVO’s produced were designed to stop pressurized oil from reaching the connecting rod bearing below approximately 12 psi. At low engine speeds pressurized oil was diverted from the bottom end in order to maintain an adequate supply of oil to the lifters and rocker arms. I am not aware of an H-D overhead valve, V-Twin engine built from 1936 to present day, including the Twin Cam, that has pressure fed crankshaft main bearings; they are all indirectly lubricated by splash.

It’s kind of funny to think about it now, but the folks that ran the big gorilla pressure relief springs, or the adjustable pressure relief in the EVO’s were actually reducing oil flow to the connecting rod bearings at lower engine speeds. Higher engine RPM's were required to overcome the additional spring pressure in order to move the valve past the crankshaft port in the relief tower.

Back around 1977, I saw a crankpin from the rod bearing assembly of a’76 XL that was manufactured without an oil passage. This engine ran over 2,000 miles without direct oiling of the connecting rod bearings. The engine was taken apart because of excessive oil pressure. There is enough oil in the crankcase of a ’76 XL, that the connecting rod bearing was adequately oiled and did not fail; in fact the parts looked flawless. I am sure that ridden hard over time, the bearing would have eventually failed, but it looked great in the first couple of thousand miles; try that with a plain bearing crankshaft.

How many people here have fired up their Twin Cam, watched the oil pressure gauge hit the right peg, then have the oil light come on? These are symptoms of a sticking pressure relief valve. A piece of foreign matter, usually chain tensioner material, becomes trapped between the relief valve and its bore. When the engine is shut down the material becomes wedged in tight as the relief valve closes. When the engine is next started the relief valve is held shut by the foreign material until the oil pump develops enough pressure to force the valve open, pegging the oil pressure gauge. With the material wedged tightly between the relief piston and the bore, the return spring cannot overcome the friction, now the valve fails to close. The pressure relief valve can no longer control the oil pressure and with the valve stuck open, the light stays on.

I experienced a stuck pressure relief valve on my 2002 FLTR. I was in Albuquerque a few years back, and I rode it 1,400 miles home with the oil light on below 2,200 RPM. The rational behind the decision to ride it home was that as long as the lifters remained pumped up, the engine will receive adequate lubrication to operate without damage under low load conditions. A plain bearing bottom end like in the VRod would fail in short order if run under similar circumstances.

FYI: All Twin Cam “B”, ’06 and later Dyna’s and all ’07 and later Twin Cam “A” engines require additional pressure to run hydraulic chain tensioners for the balancers (B engines), the plain aluminum camshaft bearings in the cam plate as well as the hydraulic cam chain tensioners. A sticky pressure relief valve would have the potential to become a bigger problem in one of these engines.

Since the “full flow” crankshaft oiling introduced in 1973 through the last EVO built, H-D Big Twin engine internals have literally been swimming in oil. If my memory serves me correctly, H-D’s first significant attempt to better manage the engine oiling began in 1981 with top end and crankshaft oil restrictors, oil pressure relief modifications, valve stem seals and internal air flow mods resulting in improved top end oil return. The EVO incorporated all of these changes along with substantially improved internal air flow. The weak link in the EVO from an oiling perspective was the method used to scavenge crankcase oil. The flywheel scraper and internal breather passage was a holdover from before 1940. The method is inefficient and results in the flywheels running in a substantial amount of oil.

Enter H-D’s Twin Cam with the “clean sheet” approach to the new Big Twin. This engine was completely redesigned, and except for a few token parts like wrist pin retainers, pushrod tube springs and cups, etc., it is a completely new package. All of the leftover 1930’s technology in the EVO was replaced, including the oiling system. I was initially surprised to see the oil jets for the pistons in the Twin Cam; in the past the challenge was to reduce the oil under the pistons; now the oil supply is finely tuned with additional spray.

Having said all that, how much oil is too much in the Twin Cam engine? Your hot rod Ford, Chevy or Dodge may benefit from higher oil pressure to offset the increased load on the crankshaft’s plain bearings, but plain bearing lubrication concepts do not apply to the Twin Cam’s low friction crankshaft bearings. My sense is that raising the oil pressure in a high flow system like the Twin Cam’s, simply introduces additional oil into the engine without returning commensurate value. Excess oil adds overhead to various systems like piston rings, air/oil separators, seals, gaskets, etc.; not to mention the effect of increased pressure on the hydraulic chain tensioners.

Bottom line: I can think of worse things than being too well lubricated, but if there is no substantial value returned, why not spend the money on something else; JMHO.

djkak
Logged

rednectum

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 834
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2007, 07:31:43 AM »

djkak, that was a very good read. you write that or did you find it elsewhere?
Logged

SBB

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16404
  • Go fast or go home! EBCM member # 2.36 .01%
    • CVO2: 2011.5 SEUC
    • CVO3: 2012 SERG
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2007, 08:38:22 AM »



Again djkak a very good read.

I would like to hear GRC's (Jerry) thoughts on the above also!

Jerry?



S
  /
    B
Logged

2012      SERG  "Nu Blue"
2018      Goldwing   
2003      HD Electra Glide Classic Silver and Black, of course!                
2 2012   Suzuki Burgmans
2018      Shelby GT350, 963 crank hp, 825 rear wheel hp

mr_magoo

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7117

    • CVO1: 04 SEEG Orange & Black All Attitude
    • CVO2: 08 CUSE Copper Canyon & Stardust Silver the Cruiser
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2007, 09:00:27 AM »

The LMR-02 spring will increase oil pressue 15% the LMR-04 spring will increase pressure 30%.  I was just at Baisley Thursday picking on of these up.  They say it will help keep the lifter pumped up so you will have a lot less top end noise. As well as help the rest of the motor.
Logged
2008FLHTCUSE3 Copper Canyon & Stardust Silver
Freedom Gear drive cams, Elite D Exhaust.

2004 SEEG Pumpkin
freedom exhaust
power commander
W/ American legend trailer<br

bisounours

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7382

Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2007, 09:14:30 AM »

djkak, Good history  :2vrolijk_21:

mr_magoo, I understand the explanations of Baisley

but what about this point : More pressure in the top : is it not a risk for the seals ?

Jacques


Logged
********2007 FLHTCUSE2 Red/Black**********
 
     2008 FLHTCUSE3, White Frost and Silver Mist
             
                  2011 FLHXSE2, Stage1

2013 FLHRSE5   Crushed Sapphire with Cold Fusion GraphicsCrushed Sapphire with Cold Fusion Graphics

grc

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14216
  • AKA Grouchy Old Fart
    • IN


    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2007, 10:20:34 AM »


Again djkak a very good read.

I would like to hear GRC's (Jerry) thoughts on the above also!

Jerry?



S
  /
    B

Well Chip, I think djkak covered it pretty darn well.  I've questioned other peoples fascination with high oil pressure before on this site, but I've never set down and spelled it all out like dj just did.  Excellent job.

To reiterate, the pre-'07 Twin Cams ('06 Dyna) do not use plain bearings and therefore do not use oil pressure to prevent metal to metal contact.  On a plain bearing engine, such as the one in your favorite car or truck, oil has to be pumped directly to each bearing, and the various shafts "float" in the bearings on a film of oil.  Remove that pressurized film of oil and you eventually get the dreaded "screech" and lock up.  With a roller or ball bearing system, metal to metal contact is normal and splash lubrication is all that is required.  

The bottom end oil flow on a Twin Cam is approximately as follows:

-From cam support plate bushing to drilled passage in crank pinion shaft.
-From pinion shaft to cross drilled passage in right flywheel.
-From flywheel to crank pin.
-Sprays out 3 holes in crank pin to lubricate the lower rod bearings.
-Oil mist resulting from the above oil flow and the rotation of the flywheel lubricates the crank bearings, the inner cam bearings, piston pin/upper rod bearings, and the cylinder walls.

If you were able to see inside the crankcases with the engine running, you would see a "fog" of oil being whipped around by the action of the flywheels and the up/down action of the pistons.  This is what provides all the lubrication your roller and ball bearings need.  Forcing more oil into the crankcases won't necessarily improve lubrication, but it can create issues with blow-by if the excess oil exceeds the capacity of the breather system oil separators, or wet sumping if it exceeds the scavenging ability of the pump.  

The changes made for '07 ('06 Dyna) don't affect the lower end oiling scheme listed above.  The differences are basically the use of plain bearings now for the outer cam journals, and the change from springs to hydraulic chain tensioners.  Harley addressed this by upgrading the oil pump to increase volume, and until we see evidence of a problem I wouldn't recommend messing with it.  So far I haven't heard or read of issues with the new system, either with bearing failure or tensioner failure, and I have to believe if there was a real need to upgrade we would have seen issues by now.

My personal opinion is that the Twin Cam engine doesn't need additional oil volume and pressure, at least not in street use.  I would like to see a change to allow the piston cooling jets to operate all the time, since that would help with the extra heat generated by the lean fuel mixture, but that has to be carefully controlled so you don't wind up starving the top end for oil or overwhelming the bottom end with excess oil.  

Jerry


Logged
Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

H-D and me  -  a classic love / hate relationship.  Current score:  love 40, hate 50, bewildered 10.

vagabond6542

  • Guest
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2007, 12:57:13 PM »

The LMR-02 spring will increase oil pressue 15% the LMR-04 spring will increase pressure 30%.  I was just at Baisley Thursday picking on of these up.  They say it will help keep the lifter pumped up so you will have a lot less top end noise. As well as help the rest of the motor.

Would it be easier to put adjustable pushrods in to maintain hydraulic lifter pump up?? Before the automotive industry went to non-adjustable hydraulics, the lifter pump-up was maintained by periodic adjustments.
Just thought I would throw my two cents in.
Logged

djkak

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1278
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2007, 04:02:34 PM »

Would it be easier to put adjustable pushrods in to maintain hydraulic lifter pump up?? Before the automotive industry went to non-adjustable hydraulics, the lifter pump-up was maintained by periodic adjustments.
Just thought I would throw my two cents in.

The hydraulic lifters in these engines don’t require a lot of pressure to operate; I’m thinking that 5 psi would keep a Twin Cam lifter pumped up without trouble. Hot idle on an EVO can be around 5 psi; it is not unusual to see an EVO running 15 to 18 psi of hot oil pressure at 2,500 to 3,000 rpm.

For all practical purposes, the OEM lifters in EVO and Twin Cam engines operate in the same manner. The big difference between these engines is that the stock Twin Cam runs somewhere near twice the oil pressure of an EVO.

djkak 
Logged

djkak

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1278
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2007, 04:07:17 PM »

djkak, that was a very good read. you write that or did you find it elsewhere?

The details in the post are all from my somewhat intact memory. I have some experience with early machinery and if you rewind back a few decades, some of the details covered in the post were cutting edge in their day. The challenge to manage the flood of oil in these early engines was substantial. If you worked with the machinery it’s easy to remember the impact that some of these changes had…well that’s if you remembered to save a few brain cells for the home stretch.

In 1979 if you had a Shovelhead that was getting 500 miles to a quart of oil, you had an exceptional machine. By today’s standard that really sounds like some incredible BS, but back then 500 miles to a quart was a tight engine. After H-D’s success with the 1981 oiling system updates, earlier engines that you had apart received these modifications automatically.

In the hot rod applications, you would perform all of the ’81 updates as well as: sharpen and contour flywheel scrapers; remove flash and polish the crankcase breather passage; square up the crankcase breather port; check breather gear timing; check the timing and alignment of the transfer port from the air/oil separator; windage trays for the ’77 and later XL’s. Around 1990, I began building and installing the pictured breather gear plug; its purpose was to increase air and oil transfer into the gearcase. I installed the last one somewhere around 1997. I see that sometime after the Twin Cam’s introduction, somebody must have seen one of these; decided to produce it, and now Drag Specialties distributes them. They may have come up with the concept themselves; although the application became non current well before Drag began handling them.

Bottom line; the above ramblings are the result of my experience with the oiling systems, coupled with aggressive brain cell conservation.

djkak
Logged

vagabond6542

  • Guest
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2007, 05:22:31 PM »

The hydraulic lifters in these engines don’t require a lot of pressure to operate; I’m thinking that 5 psi would keep a Twin Cam lifter pumped up without trouble. Hot idle on an EVO can be around 5 psi; it is not unusual to see an EVO running 15 to 18 psi of hot oil pressure at 2,500 to 3,000 rpm.

For all practical purposes, the OEM lifters in EVO and Twin Cam engines operate in the same manner. The big difference between these engines is that the stock Twin Cam runs somewhere near twice the oil pressure of an EVO.

djkak 


My next question is," Aren't the hydraulic lifters minipumps in themselves. Transferring oil up the pushrod to the top of the cylinder for lubrication?"  If this were true, looseness in the lifter, pushrod, rocker, and valve would defeat the lubrication process. Thereby requiring mechanical pressure on the lifter to do the pumping regardless of what the oil pressure to the lifters may be. All it would need would be oil volume. Could I be wrong??
Logged

rednectum

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 834
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2007, 08:40:28 PM »

The details in the post are all from my somewhat intact memory. I have some experience with early machinery and if you rewind back a few decades, some of the details covered in the post were cutting edge in their day. The challenge to manage the flood of oil in these early engines was substantial. If you worked with the machinery it’s easy to remember the impact that some of these changes had…well that’s if you remembered to save a few brain cells for the home stretch.

In 1979 if you had a Shovelhead that was getting 500 miles to a quart of oil, you had an exceptional machine. By today’s standard that really sounds like some incredible BS, but back then 500 miles to a quart was a tight engine. After H-D’s success with the 1981 oiling system updates, earlier engines that you had apart received these modifications automatically.

In the hot rod applications, you would perform all of the ’81 updates as well as: sharpen and contour flywheel scrapers; remove flash and polish the crankcase breather passage; square up the crankcase breather port; check breather gear timing; check the timing and alignment of the transfer port from the air/oil separator; windage trays for the ’77 and later XL’s. Around 1990, I began building and installing the pictured breather gear plug; its purpose was to increase air and oil transfer into the gearcase. I installed the last one somewhere around 1997. I see that sometime after the Twin Cam’s introduction, somebody must have seen one of these; decided to produce it, and now Drag Specialties distributes them. They may have come up with the concept themselves; although the application became non current well before Drag began handling them.

Bottom line; the above ramblings are the result of my experience with the oiling systems, coupled with aggressive brain cell conservation.

djkak

yep, i got one of those memories as well, lol. you left out something though----------polishing the inside of the cases and painting with iron oxide primer!!!! those were the days, all you had to do was make sure it stayed together and get timing and jetting in the realm of your experience. now we adjust with cells on dyno machines, data log, and worry about oil temp-------------thanks for those memories.
Logged

djkak

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1278
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2007, 10:10:32 PM »

My next question is," Aren't the hydraulic lifters minipumps in themselves. Transferring oil up the pushrod to the top of the cylinder for lubrication?"  If this were true, looseness in the lifter, pushrod, rocker, and valve would defeat the lubrication process. Thereby requiring mechanical pressure on the lifter to do the pumping regardless of what the oil pressure to the lifters may be. All it would need would be oil volume. Could I be wrong??

Let’s look at it this way: Shovelhead lifters are a simple piston inside a cylinder with a check valve which allows it to fill with oil but prevents the oil from escaping. They don’t do anything else besides control valve lash, period. Top end oil was delivered to the rocker arms by an external oil line that teed off the lifter supply oil.

The principle behind the Twin Cam lifters is essentially the same, except they have two chambers. The upper chamber distributes pressurized oil up through the hollow pushrod as well as down through a check valve into a separate lower chamber. This lower chamber is the business end of the lifter that controls valve lash. The upper chamber of the lifter acts more like a “T” fitting, distributing the oil rather than pumping it.

As far as the looseness of parts is concerned; it doesn’t matter if the components are oiled through the lifter or through an internal or external oil passage; the impact on the engine and the rest of the oiling system would be the same.

djkak
Logged

vagabond6542

  • Guest
Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2007, 10:58:29 PM »

Let’s look at it this way: Shovelhead lifters are a simple piston inside a cylinder with a check valve which allows it to fill with oil but prevents the oil from escaping. They don’t do anything else besides control valve lash, period. Top end oil was delivered to the rocker arms by an external oil line that teed off the lifter supply oil.

The principle behind the Twin Cam lifters is essentially the same, except they have two chambers. The upper chamber distributes pressurized oil up through the hollow pushrod as well as down through a check valve into a separate lower chamber. This lower chamber is the business end of the lifter that controls valve lash. The upper chamber of the lifter acts more like a “T” fitting, distributing the oil rather than pumping it.

As far as the looseness of parts is concerned; it doesn’t matter if the components are oiled through the lifter or through an internal or external oil passage; the impact on the engine and the rest of the oiling system would be the same.


djkak


So, from the explanation, the only source of oil to the rockers, shaft, and valve stem is not the lifters pumping through the pushrods, correct?  On "looseness", I was referring to valve lash, it should be Zero with a hydraulic lifter system to maintain oil supply. Thank you for helping to understand the upper cylinder lubrication.

Sorry for the thread jacking. I am looking at using adjustable pushrods to cure the upper cylinder lubbrication.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 10:10:13 AM by vagabond6542 »
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All
 

Page created in 0.231 seconds with 21 queries.