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Author Topic: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring  (Read 22378 times)

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djkak

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2007, 12:20:25 PM »

So, from the explanation, the only source of oil to the rockers, shaft, and valve stem is not the lifters pumping through the pushrods, correct?   On "looseness", I was referring to valve lash, it should be Zero with a hydraulic lifter system to maintain oil supply. Thank you for helping to understand the upper cylinder lubrication.

Sorry for the thread jacking. I am looking at using adjustable pushrods to cure the upper cylinder lubbrication.

I’m sorry; I used a dirty brush to paint that last word picture. In a Twin Cam, the only source of oil to the rocker arms is through the lifter and up the pushrod. The OEM lifter simply acts as a passage for the pressurized oil; it does not increase the pressure to the rocker arms.

If you are running a stock valve train there is no need to run an adjustable pushrod to maintain zero valve lash. As far as pressure goes, keep in mind that some EVO’s run almost half the pressure, and run it with the same rocker arms and essentially the same lifter, pushrod, valve and spring arrangement.

Regarding lash, lubrication and the potential for pressure loss at the pushrod ends; I believe that the top end would receive adequate lubrication with solid lifters running a reasonable amount of valve lash.

djkak
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djkak

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2007, 12:26:50 PM »

yep, i got one of those memories as well, lol. you left out something though----------polishing the inside of the cases and painting with iron oxide primer!!!! those were the days, all you had to do was make sure it stayed together and get timing and jetting in the realm of your experience. now we adjust with cells on dyno machines, data log, and worry about oil temp-------------thanks for those memories.

On the subject of crankcase coatings; prior to somewhere around 1970, I recall that Milwaukee coated the inside of the crankcases with a Gasoila branded product. I remember looking for this stuff in the late ‘70’s with no luck. I connected with the Gasoila folks OK, but the crankcase coating was no longer offered.

Now this may seem like a totally useless piece of trivia, but it will still get you a genuine cup of Starbucks coffee if you present this reply at a Starbucks counter, along with four dollars. :)

Djkak
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rednectum

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2007, 02:22:26 PM »

On the subject of crankcase coatings; prior to somewhere around 1970, I recall that Milwaukee coated the inside of the crankcases with a Gasoila branded product. I remember looking for this stuff in the late ‘70’s with no luck. I connected with the Gasoila folks OK, but the crankcase coating was no longer offered.

Now this may seem like a totally useless piece of trivia, but it will still get you a genuine cup of Starbucks coffee if you present this reply at a Starbucks counter, along with four dollars. :)

Djkak


now if someone could loan me three more dollars. ;D
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vagabond6542

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2007, 02:56:11 PM »

now if someone could loan me three more dollars. ;D

I could lend you a dollar. Being broke, you know. A vagabond. ;D
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vagabond6542

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2007, 03:02:23 PM »

I’m sorry; I used a dirty brush to paint that last word picture. In a Twin Cam, the only source of oil to the rocker arms is through the lifter and up the pushrod. The OEM lifter simply acts as a passage for the pressurized oil; it does not increase the pressure to the rocker arms.

If you are running a stock valve train there is no need to run an adjustable pushrod to maintain zero valve lash. As far as pressure goes, keep in mind that some EVO’s run almost half the pressure, and run it with the same rocker arms and essentially the same lifter, pushrod, valve and spring arrangement.

Regarding lash, lubrication and the potential for pressure loss at the pushrod ends; I believe that the top end would receive adequate lubrication with solid lifters running a reasonable amount of valve lash.

djkak


Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.
A dirty paint brush. But that's ok, a little solvent goes a long way. (chuckle)
 :jack: Sorry
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grc

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2007, 05:32:20 PM »

Sometimes a picture is worth a bunch of words.  Searched around for a cross section view of a current model lifter, the attachment is close enough for our purposes here.  If you look at the red arrows representing oil flow from the pump, you can see that oil is available to flow up the pushrods at all times, independent of the action of the lifter.  Lifters don't "pump" oil up the pushrod, the oil flows due to the pressure from the oil pump.  

If you look at the drawing, you'll notice a small spring and disk valve at the bottom of the plunger.  When the lifter is on the base circle of the cam and the engine valve is closed, the spring presses the plunger upward until it removes any free play.  At the same time the valve is open to the oil from the oil pump, and the lower chamber fills completely with oil.  As the lifter starts to be raised by the cam lobe, the oil in the lower chamber forces the valve closed.  The oil doesn't compress, so this makes the lifter "solid" for all intents and purposes.  Now, if this was the end of the story you would basically have a solid lifter, except now as the various parts heat up and expand you would have the valves staying open (that's the reason for having free play or "lash" with a solid lifter, to allow for expansion).  So the hydraulic lifter is designed to "leak down" at a specific rate, not fast enough to affect valve lift and timing or slow enough to allow the valves to remain off their seats as everything expands.  This filling and bleeding down process is continuous as long as the engine is running.  

Jerry
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 07:11:05 PM by grc »
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Texas 103

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2007, 05:47:26 PM »

That's what I'm hoping for!

I'll second the jumping of the needle and good pressure at idle>>>>Best 12.00 I ever spent.... 
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bisounours

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2007, 06:08:02 AM »

See the attached notice from Baisley...

Jacques
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djkak

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2007, 04:06:15 PM »

See the attached notice from Baisley...

Jacques

The attachment says that the valve train will run quieter with increased oil pressure supplied to the lifters. That may be true under certain circumstances; say your lifters are worn out, manufactured incorrectly or designed specifically to be run at a higher pressure. The stock Twin Cam lifter is the same part number that is run in the Sportster. The hot oil pressure spec for an XL @ 2,000 rpm is 10 to 17 psi. It is my experience that 17 psi is an optimistic number for these engines. BTW as far as the basic layout is concerned, the XL engine is very similar to the earlier Twin Cam.

Experience with my personal ‘97 Buell S1 running Branch heads and Andrews cams is that you could spin it at 6,500 rpm all day long, or until it came apart, without the lifters bleeding down; folks, this engine makes about 14 psi of pressure when hot. My BS alarm starts to rattle a little when I hear claims that an OEM lifter running near 30 psi of oil pressure could use more pressure to stay pumped up. I’ll bet a can of Diet Coke that these lifters would stay pumped up all day long running big cams with high seat pressures on about 5 psi of oil pressure.

The attachment also says that “Models with hydraulic chain tensioners will see a benefit in their ability to maintain pressure, on the chains, reducing unloading on decel and cam nose over.” My BS alarm doesn’t make any noise on this point because the hydraulic tensioners and roller chain assembly is new, and has not been time tested over the decades that the lifters have.

A little background on the “decal” and “noseover” referred to in the attachment. This describes conditions that result in the normally unloaded section of the cam chain becoming loaded; in this case the section of cam chain under the chain tensioner shoe. The early spring loaded cam chain tensioners had to be “oversprung” in order to maintain adequate pressure throughout the cam chain’s service life. Needless to say, this resulted in accelerated wear. Another thing that happens with spring tensioners is that they do not have enough tension to cope with noseover when run with aggressive cam profiles and valve springs; the tensioners simply get pushed out of the way on noseover. This isn’t a real big deal with unworn components, but as the chains and sprockets wear, the backlash becomes substantial and valve control is reduced. This becomes evident as the machine accumulates mileage and the valve train gets louder. It is most noticeable when the engine quiets down after new chains, sprockets and tensioners are installed.

Unlike spring tensioners, the hydraulic tensioners maintain a significantly reduced, constant pressure which extends the service life of all related components. By its nature, the hydraulic tensioner is better equipped to manage noseover than are spring tensioners. The question is; how much oil pressure does it take to manage noseover in a high performance application? The next question is; what affect will increased oil pressure have on the service life of the tensioner shoes and chains?

If the hydraulic tensioners prove to be sensitive to noseover when run with aggressive cams and valve springs, the answer may be to jack up the oil pressure, or another answer might be to modify the bleed off rate and timing while continuing to run lower oil pressure. The jury is still out on the hydraulic cam chain tensioners, but it shouldn’t take much longer to get them sorted out.

If you subscribe to the theory; “if a little is good then more must be better”, and jacking up the oil pressure makes you feel good, then crank it up! If lower oil pressure makes you nervous and you own a Sportster, try Prozac….amateurzac works good for those of you that don’t yet have your motorcycle endorsement. :)

djkak
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Hoist!

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2007, 05:02:14 PM »

As usual thanks again dj for that thorough explanation of how these items operate and how they're affected by oil pressure. Man, I never stop learning chit from you! Is this guy the best, or what! :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2007, 08:31:44 PM »

You are a kind and generous man, Hoist; thanks a million for the kind words. :thumbup:

djkak
 
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Hoist!

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2007, 11:02:54 PM »

You are a kind and generous man, Hoist; thanks a million for the kind words. :thumbup:

djkak
 

Well it's truly heartfelt dj! You've been an informative, interesting, humorous, read ever since I got here!
So I for one look forward to all your posts! Here's to you brother!!! :drink: :drink: :drink:

Hoist! 8)
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CVOJOE

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2007, 11:43:52 PM »

There must be a reason MOCO recently 'upgraded' their previous oil pumps and cam plates to what appears to be a different vendor.  :nixweiss:

After changing to Feuling oil pump, lifters and a Delkron cam plate, my oil pressure now runs at 15-20PSI @  idle and   45-50PSI at highway speeds and the oil temps have decreased. The peace of mind is priceless!  :2vrolijk_21: At least in theory, aids the cooling and can increase HP at least a few. To me, the peace of mind is worth it IMHO.
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vagabond6542

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2007, 02:20:31 AM »

DJ,
I echo the sentiments that Hoist has proclaimed.
I've learned a few things. :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Now it's time for  :drink:
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rednectum

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Re: Baisley LMR-02 oil spring
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2007, 06:22:49 AM »

djkak, keep em coming. great material.
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