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Author Topic: Checking the runout?  (Read 5439 times)

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djkak

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2007, 01:55:49 PM »

I'm starting to think the tech just don't know what he's talking about.  He told me "12".  When he said that I asked 12 thousandths?  And he said yes, but with a slightly confused look. So I really think he saw .0012 on the indicator and doesn't know how to read the thing and just told me 12.

If the runout is 0.012”, it is beyond the maximum published service wear limit and corrective action shouldn’t be a hassle; if it is 0.0012” you have straight set of flywheels. You can easily see 0.012” of runout with the naked eye at the bushing end of the shaft as the crank is rotated with the camplate assembly removed.

There are a couple of things going on with regard to the crank runout specifications. The service manual has three specifications in two categories. Two of the three specifications are measured with the crankshaft supported between centers in a truing stand or similar equipment. There is runout measured at the flywheel rim and runout measured at the shaft’s main bearing area next to the flywheel. The third Specification is with the crankshaft supported by its main bearings, with the runout measured at the outboard end of either shaft; usually the gearshaft bushing end.

The two categories covered in the specification are manufacturing tolerances and service wear limits. I believe that these specifications are the same all the way back through the Shovelheads and possibly earlier.

The current specs are:
Manufacturing Tolerance (new)
Runout at Rim = 0.010”
Runout (shaft at flywheel) = 0.002”
Crankshaft Runout (bushing end) = 0.003”

Service Wear limits (used)
Runout at Rim = 0.015”
Runout (shaft at flywheel) = 0.003”
Crankshaft Runout (bushing end) = 0.010”

As illustrated in the specifications, the values realized in the truing stand are a fraction of the values realized when assembled and measured at the bushing end of the gearshaft. It is my experience with the bolt together cranks that values of approximately 0.0008” to 0.001” in a stand measured next to the flywheel will return gearshaft runout values of an installed crank at the bushing end very close to 0.002”. It is also my experience that for the most part, Twin Cam gearshaft runout at the bushing end regularly falls under 0.002”. IMHO, this is a very straight set of flywheels by any standard, especially when compared to the EVO’s. In an EVO with any mileage, I would consider gearshaft bushing end runout under 0.002” to be remarkable.

djkak
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GasRat

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2007, 07:30:24 PM »

Apparently I misunderstood him.  He said that the run out was measured at .010,  and the limit from the MOCO is .012. This is measuring the crank in the motor.  So I may have a battle here because I actually got someone to print the tech bulletin from Harley and sure enough it says that 0.0 to 0.010 is the spec. The motor seems to run pretty good, I just hate that unsure feeling of "is it going to get worse or break down". I think I'm going to call the MOCO # and see what they are going to say about it.  I'll try to attach the tech bulletin.  Hopefully I get it right.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 07:34:24 PM by GasRat »
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Chief

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2007, 07:45:11 PM »

Apparently I misunderstood him.  He said that the run out was measured at .010,  and the limit from the MOCO is .012. This is measuring the crank in the motor.  So I may have a battle here because I actually got someone to print the tech bulletin from Harley and sure enough it says that 0.0 to 0.010 is the spec. The motor seems to run pretty good, I just hate that unsure feeling of "is it going to get worse or break down". I think I'm going to call the MOCO # and see what they are going to say about it.  I'll try to attach the tech bulletin.  Hopefully I get it right.

I can't really make out the image, but the following is scanned from page 3-2 of the Touring Models HD Service Manual Part No. 99483-07. Rim runout is 10 mils, but crankshaft runout is spec'd at 3 mils (0.003").

I hope this gives you some ammo when talking with them.

:indian_chief:

EDIT: Thanks for reposting the tech tip. I can read it now. A change from 0.003 to 0.012 is huge. I wonder why such a large change? It would be nice to know where, how close to the end, of the crankshaft they are measuring that.

Do you have page two?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 08:17:27 PM by Chief »
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djkak

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2007, 07:56:55 PM »

Apparently I misunderstood him.  He said that the run out was measured at .010,  and the limit from the MOCO is .012. This is measuring the crank in the motor.  So I may have a battle here because I actually got someone to print the tech bulletin from Harley and sure enough it says that 0.0 to 0.010 is the spec. The motor seems to run pretty good, I just hate that unsure feeling of "is it going to get worse or break down". I think I'm going to call the MOCO # and see what they are going to say about it.  I'll try to attach the tech bulletin.  Hopefully I get it right.

I see the Tech Tip specifically says that the Service Manual specification has been changed from 0.010” to 0.012”; didn’t see that coming.

I wonder if the Service Department would be willing to set the dial indicator up and let you take a look for yourself; couldn’t hurt to ask.

djkak
« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 06:12:16 PM by djkak »
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skreminegul07

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2007, 08:40:44 PM »

Chief, on page 3-4 they post the service wear limits which are greater.  were you able to print that tech bulletin?

thanks
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Chief

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2007, 08:57:15 PM »

Chief, on page 3-4 they post the service wear limits which are greater.  were you able to print that tech bulletin?

thanks

Thanks for that. I see the 10 mils there. So the wear limit went from 10 to 12 mils. That's not too much, but the flywheel spec went from 3 to 10 mils. To me, that's huge.

Yes, I got to see it. Seeing the testing method would be nice. I'm going to see if I can get the whole TT, and see the video clip mentioned, at the dealer.

:indian_chief:
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 08:59:49 PM by Chief »
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skreminegul07

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2007, 08:59:27 PM »

The long awaited fix for the runout problem is change the wear limit.  How creative.  The good/bad news is that the bad ones have been way over those limits. 

I just saw the posts about Howie's motor.
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GasRat

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2007, 09:05:50 PM »

I actually have all three pages I'll scan & post. But the 2nd page just refers to trouble shooting for no oil pressure and the 3rd page talks about vibration.
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GasRat

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2007, 09:10:03 PM »

Here's pg2
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GasRat

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2007, 09:11:51 PM »

pg3
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Chief

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2007, 09:20:31 PM »

Page 2 and Page 3 are perfect. That's just what I was hoping to see.

Thanks

:indian_chief:
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skreminegul07

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2007, 09:35:39 PM »

Page 2 and Page 3 are perfect. That's just what I was hoping to see.

Thanks

:indian_chief:

????????????????????????????

What's up?   I can't get these printed legibly. 

Thanks
 :nixweiss: :nixweiss:
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Chief

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2007, 09:52:54 PM »

????????????????????????????

What's up?   I can't get these printed legibly. 

Thanks
 :nixweiss: :nixweiss:

If you click on them to see the full-size image, you can then right-click and save them on your pc. You should then be able to open them with whatever viewer you like best.

:indian_chief:
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Jeepster

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2007, 03:31:03 AM »

If you click on them to see the full-size image, you can then right-click and save them on your pc. You should then be able to open them with whatever viewer you like best.

:indian_chief:


I have all three pages and video in PDF format. PM me if you want a copy
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skreminegul07

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Re: Checking the runout?
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2007, 07:12:48 AM »


I have all three pages and video in PDF format. PM me if you want a copy
[/color]

PM sent.

Thanks
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