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My bike is going in for a leaking rear head gasket. I am quite sure I am also having a bad vibration in the motor. For those of you who say that the MoCo is providing new motors for motors out of spec....where is the runout measured and how?

[Fired00d]

You can find the tech bulletin that grc (Jerry) posted here - 110 Motors. It will have the specs and the different places (in crankcase and in truing stand) the specs are applicable.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[bikerboy53]

You may want to have the runout checked on both ends of the crank. My bike has a noticeable vibration so I asked to have the runout checked this time while they have it apart to fix the head gasket leak (for the third time). The camshaft/pinion end of the crank had .009" of runout -not enough to qualify for a crank/engine replacement, but still not good in my opinion. Next the dealer checked the runout on the drive/primary end of the crank and found .020" of runout using the procedures found in the bulletin d00d mentioned. That's enough to qualify for a new crankshaft at least...

I'm not sure why the Moco isn't warrantying the whole engine though. So far they have done the following repairs:
1. Replaced both head gaskets at approx. 7400 miles.
2. Replaced both cylinders, rings, and head gaskets at approx. 8500 miles.
3. Currently they are in the process of replacing both cylinders (again), rings, crankshaft, and head gaskets at approx. 10,000 miles.

My local dealer refused to check the crank runout even though I offered to pay for the procedure  so I took the bike to a dealer about 250 miles away. Then the local dealer called up and said they were ready to check the crank runout for me... Arrrrggghhh!!  My local dealer could never verify the vibration either, but the "other" dealer took it for a short ride and agreed that it DID have a vibration.

I'm not taking any chances on still having a vibration when I get the bike back so I have asked to have the reciprocating assembly (crank, rods, pistons) balanced before they put it back together with the new crank. Also asked them to check the runout on the new crank in a truing stand before doing anything. (They agreed and had already planned to check the new crank before using it.)

Good luck with your bike!

[Hoist!]

You may want to have the runout checked on both ends of the crank. My bike has a noticeable vibration so I asked to have the runout checked this time while they have it apart to fix the head gasket leak (for the third time). The camshaft/pinion end of the crank had .009" of runout -not enough to qualify for a crank/engine replacement, but still not good in my opinion. Next the dealer checked the runout on the drive/primary end of the crank and found .020" of runout using the procedures found in the bulletin d00d mentioned. That's enough to qualify for a new crankshaft at least...

I'm not sure why the Moco isn't warrantying the whole engine though. So far they have done the following repairs:
1. Replaced both head gaskets at approx. 7400 miles.
2. Replaced both cylinders, rings, and head gaskets at approx. 8500 miles.
3. Currently they are in the process of replacing both cylinders (again), rings, crankshaft, and head gaskets at approx. 10,000 miles.

My local dealer refused to check the crank runout even though I offered to pay for the procedure  so I took the bike to a dealer about 250 miles away. Then the local dealer called up and said they were ready to check the crank runout for me... Arrrrggghhh!!  My local dealer could never verify the vibration either, but the "other" dealer took it for a short ride and agreed that it DID have a vibration.

I'm not taking any chances on still having a vibration when I get the bike back so I have asked to have the reciprocating assembly (crank, rods, pistons) balanced before they put it back together with the new crank. Also asked them to check the runout on the new crank in a truing stand before doing anything. (They agreed and had already planned to check the new crank before using it.)

Good luck with your bike!

Sad state of affairs with these 110 engines. Sorry to hear about it BB53. Been going thru the 110 torture myself. I haven't had much luck at all with dealers. They're not very well equipped to do engine builds. Have you considered getting the replacement parts from them under w.....ty, then have an engine builder build it after a Timkin conversion and welded flywheels? This way you know it's built right. This HD dealer might be special, but that's just not HD's business these days. At least in these parts. Good luck with yours this time around!

Hoist!

[grc]

You may want to have the runout checked on both ends of the crank. My bike has a noticeable vibration so I asked to have the runout checked this time while they have it apart to fix the head gasket leak (for the third time). The camshaft/pinion end of the crank had .009" of runout -not enough to qualify for a crank/engine replacement, but still not good in my opinion. Next the dealer checked the runout on the drive/primary end of the crank and found .020" of runout using the procedures found in the bulletin d00d mentioned. That's enough to qualify for a new crankshaft at least...

I'm not sure why the Moco isn't warrantying the whole engine though. So far they have done the following repairs:
1. Replaced both head gaskets at approx. 7400 miles.
2. Replaced both cylinders, rings, and head gaskets at approx. 8500 miles.
3. Currently they are in the process of replacing both cylinders (again), rings, crankshaft, and head gaskets at approx. 10,000 miles.
My local dealer refused to check the crank runout even though I offered to pay for the procedure  so I took the bike to a dealer about 250 miles away. Then the local dealer called up and said they were ready to check the crank runout for me... Arrrrggghhh!!  My local dealer could never verify the vibration either, but the "other" dealer took it for a short ride and agreed that it DID have a vibration.

I'm not taking any chances on still having a vibration when I get the bike back so I have asked to have the reciprocating assembly (crank, rods, pistons) balanced before they put it back together with the new crank. Also asked them to check the runout on the new crank in a truing stand before doing anything. (They agreed and had already planned to check the new crank before using it.)

Good luck with your bike!

Rather strange.  This is the first report I've read where replacing just the crankshaft was the prescribed repair; previously H-D wouldn't let the dealers replace crankshafts, they just replaced the entire engine.  Have you actually spoken to H-D about this, or are you just letting the dealer handle everything?  

Jerry

[bikerboy53]

Sad state of affairs with these 110 engines. Sorry to hear about it BB53. Been going thru the 110 torture myself. I haven't had much luck at all with dealers. They're not very well equipped to do engine builds. Have you considered getting the replacement parts from them under w.....ty, then have an engine builder build it after a Timkin conversion and welded flywheels? This way you know it's built right. This HD dealer might be special, but that's just not HD's business these days. At least in these parts. Good luck with yours this time around!

Hoist!

Hoist,
Thanks for the kind words. I've been following your builds closely because I'd like to do some similar things to my bike, but first I want to make sure all the w.....ty problems are resolved. I don't want to sink a pile of money into this engine only to find out that it has to be replaced or something. I don't know if this dealer is "special" or not -but at least they listened to me and agreed that the bike did have a vibration. My local dealer "could neither confirm nor deny" that it had a vibration. I've thought about the Timken conversion and welded crank, but if the MoCo does decide to replace the motor later then those upgrades would go down the drain. The current dealer said that the only way to keep my w.....ty intact without a doubt is to keep the engine completely stock. Good luck with your current build. I'll be keeping an eye out for the things you are doing, so please keep those most excellent posts coming! If I have a reliable engine (no leaks, or vibrations, etc.), after the w.....ty runs out I'm gonna go whole hog on a build! I know you've taken a lot of flak, but at least you're out there trying things and reporting them back to the rest of us, and I for one really appreciate it! 

Rather strange.  This is the first report I've read where replacing just the crankshaft was the prescribed repair; previously H-D wouldn't let the dealers replace crankshafts, they just replaced the entire engine.  Have you actually spoken to H-D about this, or are you just letting the dealer handle everything?  

Jerry

Jerry,
So far I have just been letting the dealer handle everything. I called the MoCo a few weeks ago about the vibration problem and it took about an hour on hold before I got to talk to a real person. I'm with you -I was surprised that they weren't going to w.....ty (to borrow Hoist's term) the whole motor. The reason they said the MoCo gave them for a new crank only, was that since the motor was already so far torn down -cylinders & heads off, cam plate out, primary disassembled for the runout check, etc. that it was less expensive for them to only replace the crank vs. the whole motor. I have no reason to believe this dealer is giving me a line, but you never know... I travel a lot and work some long hours so it's hard to make the time to be on hold on the phone for that long. I'm going to trust the dealer on this one and hope I don't end up regretting it. In some ways I can see where only replacing the crankshaft has an advantage -they can check the runout before it goes into the engine.

I recently rode an '08 SERK demo bike in Reno at Street Vibrations, and it had a mild vibration similar to my bike's. My buddy rode an '08 CVO Ultra Classic at the same time and he said it was smooth as glass. Without riding both bikes I don't know how much the other bike may or may not have vibrated. But it does make me wonder how good the quality control is these days... 

[Hoist!]

Hoist,
Thanks for the kind words. I've been following your builds closely because I'd like to do some similar things to my bike, but first I want to make sure all the w.....ty problems are resolved. I don't want to sink a pile of money into this engine only to find out that it has to be replaced or something. I don't know if this dealer is "special" or not -but at least they listened to me and agreed that the bike did have a vibration. My local dealer "could neither confirm nor deny" that it had a vibration. I've thought about the Timken conversion and welded crank, but if the MoCo does decide to replace the motor later then those upgrades would go down the drain. The current dealer said that the only way to keep my w.....ty intact without a doubt is to keep the engine completely stock. Good luck with your current build. I'll be keeping an eye out for the things you are doing, so please keep those most excellent posts coming! If I have a reliable engine (no leaks, or vibrations, etc.), after the w.....ty runs out I'm gonna go whole hog on a build! I know you've taken a lot of flak, but at least you're out there trying things and reporting them back to the rest of us, and I for one really appreciate it! 

Jerry,
So far I have just been letting the dealer handle everything. I called the MoCo a few weeks ago about the vibration problem and it took about an hour on hold before I got to talk to a real person. I'm with you -I was surprised that they weren't going to w.....ty (to borrow Hoist's term) the whole motor. The reason they said the MoCo gave them for a new crank only, was that since the motor was already so far torn down -cylinders & heads off, cam plate out, primary disassembled for the runout check, etc. that it was less expensive for them to only replace the crank vs. the whole motor. I have no reason to believe this dealer is giving me a line, but you never know... I travel a lot and work some long hours so it's hard to make the time to be on hold on the phone for that long. I'm going to trust the dealer on this one and hope I don't end up regretting it. In some ways I can see where only replacing the crankshaft has an advantage -they can check the runout before it goes into the engine.

I recently rode an '08 SERK demo bike in Reno at Street Vibrations, and it had a mild vibration similar to my bike's. My buddy rode an '08 CVO Ultra Classic at the same time and he said it was smooth as glass. Without riding both bikes I don't know how much the other bike may or may not have vibrated. But it does make me wonder how good the quality control is these days... 

I appreciate your comments bb53! If you trust this dealer to build this engine from scratch, which is essentially what he'll be doing, and you're not paying for labor, now's the time to build it right! F the w.....ty! You won't need a new engine if you build it right. Excessive runout problems will cause damage or be the reason for a replacement. But if you do the Timkin and weld or replace the flywheels with a zero runout assembly, you won't be thinking about a replacement motor. So it becomes a 2 edged sword for us. Build it right and void the w.....ty. Or build it their way ands always be worried about when it will break again. But it's under w.....ty! Man, these guys at HD really got things backwards!

I didn't want a 2 year motor, and be worried thru that time about it. Chit, I didn't even get to use it as I planned this year anyway because of issues! I ain't goin' thru this next year. Why wait to do it right, if it's got to be done anyway. Thay can keep their free POS stock 110. A real blueprinted, strong reliable engine is all the w.....ty I need. And I get a w......ty from my builder anyway! FTW and set yourself and your bike free!

Hoist!

[bikerboy53]

Hoist,

I'm not sure I trust this dealer far enough to have them do a performance build for me. They even suggested that I could take advantage of the "free" w.....ty labor to build the motor now. When I asked whether they would stand behind the build tho they said no.  They know the history of my motor and they may have as many concerns about its longevity as I do -maybe that's why they don't want to stand behind it...? I don't know if my crank was always bad, or if it gradually got worse over time. I know a welded crank and Timken conversion should take care of that, but since it started leaking oil it hasn't stopped!  I'd like to make sure the oil leaks are completely cured before I get too carried away -just in case it's something like the engine cases that are causing the leaks.

This latest dealer says the original cylinders were bad and that the first set of replacement cylinders were also from the same bad batch. My local dealer said the original head gasket leak was caused by the cylinder liners shifting -apparently it didn't start happening until about 6500 miles when the first leak developed. The new dealer says that the top and bottom surfaces of both previous sets of cylinders weren't parallel and that was causing uneven clamping loads on the head gaskets -causing the leaks. I'm not sure who or what to believe any more!  I know a local engine builder that I trust, but I'm still worried about how to fix the constantly recurring head gasket leaks. And I don't think my local guy has built too many 110s -if any!

The boss (wife) and I wish we had kept our '05 RK now. It wasn't an SE, but we had the motor built by our local dealer before we even took delivery. It was a strong running, smooth bike, and we had it all set up for comfortable traveling. We thought the SERK would be a step up, but so far it hasn't made us completely happy.

Then there are the hard saddlebags we've been trying to get painted since February of this year...  Maybe we'll have them by Christmas?

[sadunbar]

Hoist,

I'm not sure I trust this dealer far enough to have them do a performance build for me. They even suggested that I could take advantage of the "free" w.....ty labor to build the motor now. When I asked whether they would stand behind the build tho they said no.  They know the history of my motor and they may have as many concerns about its longevity as I do -maybe that's why they don't want to stand behind it...? I don't know if my crank was always bad, or if it gradually got worse over time. I know a welded crank and Timken conversion should take care of that, but since it started leaking oil it hasn't stopped!  I'd like to make sure the oil leaks are completely cured before I get too carried away -just in case it's something like the engine cases that are causing the leaks.

This latest dealer says the original cylinders were bad and that the first set of replacement cylinders were also from the same bad batch. My local dealer said the original head gasket leak was caused by the cylinder liners shifting -apparently it didn't start happening until about 6500 miles when the first leak developed. The new dealer says that the top and bottom surfaces of both previous sets of cylinders weren't parallel and that was causing uneven clamping loads on the head gaskets -causing the leaks. I'm not sure who or what to believe any more!  I know a local engine builder that I trust, but I'm still worried about how to fix the constantly recurring head gasket leaks. And I don't think my local guy has built too many 110s -if any!

The boss (wife) and I wish we had kept our '05 RK now. It wasn't an SE, but we had the motor built by our local dealer before we even took delivery. It was a strong running, smooth bike, and we had it all set up for comfortable traveling. We thought the SERK would be a step up, but so far it hasn't made us completely happy.

Then there are the hard saddlebags we've been trying to get painted since February of this year...  Maybe we'll have them by Christmas?

I continue to be amazed of the coincidence that the shifting liners and non parallel jugs and uneven clamp forces all end up on the rear cylinder - and the front cylinder apparently - out of sheer luck - gets non shifting liners and parallel jugs with even clamp force.  At least the dealers who pass on this wisdom don't for a minute think their customers are morons...

[grc]

I continue to be amazed of the coincidence that the shifting liners and non parallel jugs and uneven clamp forces all end up on the rear cylinder - and the front cylinder apparently - out of sheer luck - gets non shifting liners and parallel jugs with even clamp force.  At least the dealers who pass on this wisdom don't for a minute think their customers are morons...

Scott,

This is what happens when a company tries to cover things up rather than spill their guts about a problem.  The MoCo refuses to acknowledge the problem, much less share information about the root cause, and as we all remember from our grade school science classes, nature abhors a vacuum.  That includes human nature, and in the absence of any meaningful input from the MoCo, folks just make this crap up.  At least, as far as I know, no one has blamed it on global warming yet.

Jerry

[skreminegul07]

There was ONE post recently of a front cylinder leak.  But we all have to agree that the heat differential between the F&R is substantial enough to affect the sealing surfaces.  I'm not blaming global warming either, but then again I didn't invent the Internet while I was a teenager.