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Author Topic: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement  (Read 16053 times)

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djkak

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2007, 11:25:06 AM »

djkak,
Thanks for the great info.  I did not know of S&S issues.  I thought they were perfect.  Did this issue occur with both cylinders F&R?  That would be key to know.

Thanks

As I recall it was an issue with both cylinders. Keep in mind that the timeline was something like 1986 through 1997. I always felt that allowing the cylinder liner to rise above the head gasket surface was asking for trouble. I’m sure that it is challenging enough achieving an effective, lifetime bond between these materials without adding this kind of overhead. If the liner was somehow supported at the cylinder base, this approach might have worked better.

Another thing that may have contributed to the liner issues is the head bolt torque specification. As I recall, S&S was looking for 60+ ft lbs at the time. It was not unusual for these engines to pull cylinder studs from the crankcase.

Does anyone else know if S&S currently manufactures their cylinders in this manner? I would be interested in learning about their current 3 5/8” EVO cylinders as well as their Twin Cam offerings. How about their current head bolt torque spec?

djkak
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Keith_H

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2007, 11:29:07 AM »

Mine is in the shop for the second oil leak. The first weap started at 3000 miles, I just kept an eye on it and at 5000 it let loose and spit oil down the side of the bike and bags. The fix was to replace the gaskets. Now at 8000 it started to weap again so i took it right in. The shop has been great throught the whole thing (midamerica HD, Columbia, MO). The min they got it in they called HD techs and started going into the motor step by step. My shops tech showed me and let me feel the the lip where the sleeve had slipped. No razor blade needed, i could feel it with my fingernail. He put new jugs on order. Hopefully this will fix this problem but in my mind i doubt it. Just don't feel good that the new sleeves won't slip as well, i haven't heard or read anywhere where the new jugs were built any different than the old ones. I love the bike and won't trade it for anything but it is a little frustrating. 10 months, 8000 miles and motor torn apart for the second time. To make matters worst i'm waiting for the crank runout problem to happen. I'm sure that will be next.
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djkak

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 01:10:09 PM »

.....The shop has been great throught the whole thing (midamerica HD, Columbia, MO)....My shops tech showed me and let me feel the the lip where the sleeve had slipped. No razor blade needed, i could feel it with my fingernail. He put new jugs on order. Hopefully this will fix this problem but in my mind i doubt it. Just don't feel good that the new sleeves won't slip as well, i haven't heard or read anywhere where the new jugs were built any different than the old ones.....To make matters worst i'm waiting for the crank runout problem to happen. I'm sure that will be next.

Thanks for the feedback. It may very well turn out that the approach used to anchor the 4.750” and 4.875” cylinder liner is somehow inadequate for the 4.00” bore cylinders; or that the 110’s use a different method to anchor the liner which is not working out. It is my sense that typically when an OEM liner moves within the cylinder, the issue relates to the quality of the bond between the iron and aluminum. In this case the source of the problem is with the Foundry producing the blanks.

This is speculative but I believe that if your crank is still straight it will probably remain that way. That’s not too personal is it?

djkak
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SPIDERMAN

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2007, 03:20:55 PM »

The only effective method of bonding aluminum to steel that I've ever seen is what we have in the bi-mettalic plate we use in the shipbuilding industry. Large plates of steel and aluminum are placed together with nitro between them and detonators set up to create a wave of explosion. The whole thing is buried under tons of gravel and set off. The end result when viewed sideways is a plate with a ripple or wave between the two dissimilar metals that locks them together almost like the loop and hook effect of velcro. I don't claim to be an expert, more shade tree mechanic than anything, but the only way I can envision the liner being held in the cylinder is an extremly tight hot/cold press fit and then staking.

B B
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SE08RK

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2007, 05:28:11 PM »

The only effective method of bonding aluminum to steel that I've ever seen is what we have in the bi-mettalic plate we use in the shipbuilding industry. Large plates of steel and aluminum are placed together with nitro between them and detonators set up to create a wave of explosion. The whole thing is buried under tons of gravel and set off. The end result when viewed sideways is a plate with a ripple or wave between the two dissimilar metals that locks them together almost like the loop and hook effect of velcro. I don't claim to be an expert, more shade tree mechanic than anything, but the only way I can envision the liner being held in the cylinder is an extremly tight hot/cold press fit and then staking.

B B


Dealing with an aluminum die casting which the cylinders are, the logical way to include the liners is to do it the old fashioned way: cast them in. Even then, the expansion rates are different so a proper keying method must be used. Doesn't make sense that these liners are slipping since they should have been keyed into the aluminum as the bearing races always have in early HD cases. What's going wrong with HD?
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djkak

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2007, 09:37:01 PM »

Dealing with an aluminum die casting which the cylinders are, the logical way to include the liners is to do it the old fashioned way: cast them in. Even then, the expansion rates are different so a proper keying method must be used. Doesn't make sense that these liners are slipping since they should have been keyed into the aluminum as the bearing races always have in early HD cases. What's going wrong with HD?

Although contrary to some information floating around elsewhere on the web, it is my firm understanding that H-D has used a “spiny lock” iron liner cast into their aluminum cylinders since 1984. I also understand that the process of bonding these dissimilar materials, while not uncommon, must be performed under precise, carefully controlled conditions or the bond will eventually fail. When the bond between the iron or steel and aluminum fails, the spiny lock and other anchor methods have proven over time to be insufficient by themselves to maintain the stability of the cast in material. Strong bonds together with an effective anchor mechanism are both essential for the long term reliability of these components.

djkak
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SE08RK

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2007, 06:55:43 AM »

Actually djkak, there is no bond. The reason for the keying. There is no known method to bond aluminum to iron. All that can be done to make a successful joint is to chemically clean the iron surface - with the keying method used - and within either cryogenics or an inert atmosphere cast the aluminum around the iron liner within the cylinder die. Aluminum alloy requires an atmospherically controlled casting method due to the damage done in air to alloying elements mainly by oxygen and any moisture. Some elements will not bond, and iron and aluminum are good examples, they can be made to 'stick' together under great pressure as BB explained and you can electroplate aluminum to steel but a mechanical bond must be a physical matrix.

Harley Davidson sand cast cases have used carbon steel bearing races keyed into the casting since they began using roller bearings. The technology is not new to cast iron or steel into an aluminum structure. They used a depleting atmosphere for their castings.

Looks like if these liners are sliding in the aluminum casting, either the cylinder has been extremely overheated and a separation in the joint has been created or the keying method is unsuccessful to start with. The physical matrix has failed... Germany used cast-in iron liners in their aircraft engines before WW2 - the late 30's early 40's...
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rednectum

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2007, 07:16:46 AM »

so SE08 and DJKAK, do yall think that if a typical 110 has never overheated, and if cams were changed to get CCP down to around 185----------that there would be no problem? or do yall think the problem would be there regardless, because of poor cylinder design?

is the 110 designed exactly like the tc88 and 96 motors? only bigger------or did hd have a better idea for 110 motors?

BTW, this thread is a great read, yall keep it going!
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skreminegul07

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2007, 07:47:40 AM »

so SE08 and DJKAK, do yall think that if a typical 110 has never overheated, and if cams were changed to get CCP down to around 185----------that there would be no problem? or do yall think the problem would be there regardless, because of poor cylinder design?

is the 110 designed exactly like the tc88 and 96 motors? only bigger------or did hd have a better idea for 110 motors?

BTW, this thread is a great read, yall keep it going!

My non engineering response is yes, a perfect storm, leaner conditions and less cylinder material to dissapate the heat and provide proper sealing surface.  I do not think the 113" cylinders would have this problem.  IMHO.
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SE08RK

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2007, 10:12:52 AM »

I believe it depends on who made the cylinders....are they all made at the same factory? This liner sliding problem isn't common to all 110's evidently so there must be a specific reason why some do and some don't. The overheating would have to have been so drastic that the rings would have lost their temper and along with other resulting piston damage, it would be a very sick running engine. The keying method has to be the problem as DJKAK says. But without destructive testing there is no way to know.

IMO, I would go ahead with the upgrades. Worst case result would be a blown head gasket due to the liner slip before any other catastrophic events could happen, so fore warning is detectable. I don't believe CCP would have much of an affect either.The increased bore size may even allow for better cooling since the heat conduction would be faster to the aluminum castings and cooling fins...



spell check can't do a thing with left out words!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 06:19:54 PM by SE08RK »
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djkak

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2007, 11:46:11 PM »

Actually djkak, there is no bond. The reason for the keying. There is no known method to bond aluminum to iron. All that can be done to make a successful joint is to chemically clean the iron surface - with the keying method used - and within either cryogenics or an inert atmosphere cast the aluminum around the iron liner within the cylinder die. Aluminum alloy requires an atmospherically controlled casting method due to the damage done in air to alloying elements mainly by oxygen and any moisture. Some elements will not bond, and iron and aluminum are good examples, they can be made to 'stick' together under great pressure as BB explained and you can electroplate aluminum to steel but a mechanical bond must be a physical matrix.

Harley Davidson sand cast cases have used carbon steel bearing races keyed into the casting since they began using roller bearings. The technology is not new to cast iron or steel into an aluminum structure. They used a depleting atmosphere for their castings.

Looks like if these liners are sliding in the aluminum casting, either the cylinder has been extremely overheated and a separation in the joint has been created or the keying method is unsuccessful to start with. The physical matrix has failed... Germany used cast-in iron liners in their aircraft engines before WW2 - the late 30's early 40's...

Admittedly my belief in the existence of a bond between a steel insert cast into an aluminum housing is based on field experience rather than experience with the manufacturing process. I do have an interest in the manufacturing process, which I pursue from the comfort of a La-Z-boy. My enthusiasm for the manufacturing process may or may not add value to this discussion.

The contention that no known method exists to bond aluminum to iron is not consistent with the experience of folks who die cast aluminum. It is my understanding that the unintentional adhesion of aluminum to the ferrous die material is a substantial challenge for manufacturers. My understanding of the bond is that under specific conditions a reaction between the iron and aluminum results in the formation of a composite material, an intermetallic interface, which both iron and aluminum adhere to.

Whether this method or some other is purposefully used in manufacturing is ultimately the question. In my experience, evidence of a bond’s existence is strong in an aged, well used assembly showing no evidence of fluid incursion. Typical failures involve fluid (lubricant) incursion between the materials, working the joint apart over time as it is thermally cycled. Joints which have not failed show little or no evidence of fluid incursion when field tested by warming the component and inspecting the joint for fluid weepage.

Consider the application of the steel insert cast into the left crankcase. Prior to 1990 this insert supported the Big Twin’s left main bearing. With no bond between the crankcase and insert, the dissimilar expansion of the steel and aluminum would result in internal joint movement, wear and eventual fluid incursion.

If in this example no bond exists between the steel insert and aluminum crankcase, explaining the affect of joint expansion, the resulting wear and fluid incursion on the long term durability of the joint would likely be an interesting read.

djkak
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rednectum

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2007, 06:25:45 AM »

My understanding of the bond is that under specific conditions a reaction between the iron and aluminum results in the formation of a composite material, an intermetallic interface, which both iron and aluminum adhere to.


CRAZY GLUE? :nixweiss:  lol. sorry DJ, i couldnt help it. very interesting read for sure!


dont stop now and leave us hanging.
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SE08RK

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2007, 07:02:38 AM »

Admittedly my belief in the existence of a bond between a steel insert cast into an aluminum housing is based on field experience rather than experience with the manufacturing process. I do have an interest in the manufacturing process, which I pursue from the comfort of a La-Z-boy. My enthusiasm for the manufacturing process may or may not add value to this discussion.

The contention that no known method exists to bond aluminum to iron is not consistent with the experience of folks who die cast aluminum. It is my understanding that the unintentional adhesion of aluminum to the ferrous die material is a substantial challenge for manufacturers. My understanding of the bond is that under specific conditions a reaction between the iron and aluminum results in the formation of a composite material, an intermetallic interface, which both iron and aluminum adhere to.

Whether this method or some other is purposefully used in manufacturing is ultimately the question. In my experience, evidence of a bond’s existence is strong in an aged, well used assembly showing no evidence of fluid incursion. Typical failures involve fluid (lubricant) incursion between the materials, working the joint apart over time as it is thermally cycled. Joints which have not failed show little or no evidence of fluid incursion when field tested by warming the component and inspecting the joint for fluid weepage.

Consider the application of the steel insert cast into the left crankcase. Prior to 1990 this insert supported the Big Twin’s left main bearing. With no bond between the crankcase and insert, the dissimilar expansion of the steel and aluminum would result in internal joint movement, wear and eventual fluid incursion.

If in this example no bond exists between the steel insert and aluminum crankcase, explaining the affect of joint expansion, the resulting wear and fluid incursion on the long term durability of the joint would likely be an interesting read.

djkak

You are a thinker and you are also thinking into the future just a bit. NASA is right now in the process of setting up metallurgy experiments in space to research these very subjects. Experiments of metal deposition are currently being set-up using an electron beam gun in space - a natural cryogenic chamber - to begin some extensive studies toward some of these types of alloys and surface adhesion problems that exist on the planet in our limited ability to create the correct isolated environment. The ability to alloy elements in space where temperature and vacuum work to change the eutectic properties of elements is going to be amazing - to put it mildly.

This laboratory where I work is involved in some of these studies and experiments as well. This lab has an accelerator that is one of the worlds only continuous electron beams - studies of matter down to quarks and their adhesion. The main ongoing research is into the area of "what is holding molecules and their sub parts together" or "what is the glue that is holding matter together"? (as soon as they know, teleportation will become a reality - "beam me up Scotty"). To go a little farther, I'm involved with the fabrication of the niobium cells that house and form the electron beam for the accelerator and our chief problem is forming the perfect cell (shaped like bells, electron beam welded together (we have a Sciaky Electron Beam Welding Chamber) at their equator and iris to form electron guns varying in size, shape and length). Niobium is very expensive but it is the only metal that becomes a superconductor at super low temperature (-465 degrees) so it becomes invisible to an electron. And, in our quest to develop an alloy of an easily formed metal along with the superconducting characteristic of niobium, some experiments with joining elements such as iron, aluminum, copper, titanium, and others together and to niobium.

Hoping not to bore you with a lot of detail, we have experimented with a bond of aluminum and different alloys of steel. They act like oil and water an will bond or mix to an extent but there always remains a junction boundary line that will separate when the article is subjected to a temperature change. Oil and water will mix when a wetting agent (soap) is entered into the mix. Steel and aluminum will also emulsify in a very controlled area of temperature but as soon as the temperature changes these elements begin their rejection and the molecules begin to coagulate into a glassy, super thin layer that has no malleability or elasticity so it becomes the boundary line that fails during cooling and solidifying. So, the 'emulsified' or alloyed metals lose their desirable qualities - such as emulsified oil and water - the water loses its surface tension and oil loses its ability to lubricate and then will begin to separate once again. The desire is to form a gradual emulsion or alloy from one material to the other and at present, we have not done this.

Some of the physicists at this lab could use these 'ideas' that folks think about and also would benefit with the 'is possible' attitude that some of us have. Science fiction becomes science fact when scientists forget about what they conceive as impossible.

I guess until there is a better way developed to join iron and aluminum, we will have to depend on some engineers' conception of a well designed 'spiny lock' and strive to prevent the joint from becoming a rattling, slipping and leaking mess. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 07:11:19 AM by SE08RK »
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Hoist!

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2007, 07:46:53 AM »

Holy crap, I was wrong! This is Rocket Science after all! :nixweiss: ;D

Hoist! 8)
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skreminegul07

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2007, 07:57:57 AM »

Maybe NASA can help HD to use the ceramics used to keep the re entry heat from the space shuttle to keep the heat from the rider.  The shuttle and the 110 generate about the same amount of heat.  :)
 :huepfenjump3:
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