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[Midnight Rider]

Does this mean that you immediately removed the front forks from your Harley and replaced them with "American" parts?  That's just one example, there are many more if we want to go down that road.  And BTW, that so-called "American" Harley is now rapidly becoming Chinese as they source more and more of their parts to the lowest (slave labor) bidder.  (Hmmmm, wonder if that has anything to do with the obvious decline in quality/reliability over the past few years?)

Tell you what I'd love to be able to do - ride by the domicile of each person who waves the flag when it comes to motorcycles and take a look at the other products they own.  Let's see, a Toyota in the driveway, a Sony in the family room, what else?

I still haven't seen anyone effectively refute the contention that H-D's bikes in general, and the CVO's in particular, are overpriced and underperforming relative to most of the competition. 

Jerry

Jerry...that's because no rational arguement can be made for that particular tenet.  They are, in fact, overpriced/underperforming motorcycles compared to almost anything else available...at the same time, until the consumer demands something different from them, the MOCO has no intention of changing.  I personally think that time is coming, and we hopefully will see a turnaround in both attitude and corporate philosophy.  Blind Faith eventually gets a wakeup call.  I intend to keep both my 06's for a long time, but unless HD does something drastic to turn around their quality, dealer attitudes, service philosophy, etc, my next touring bike, if that time comes, will probably be another brand.

The fact of the matter is, it is all but impossible to purchase anything totally "Made in The USA", other than a few Mom and Pop type places scattered here and there. I do seek those type of places out, as I have found in many cases that the quality is indeed superior.  Fox Creek is a case in point.  I've even found a leather maker who makes rolled dog collars in house that are superior to anything I've seen before, so I'll pay 30 bucks each for two dog collars, but they will be the last ones I have to buy 'till the dogs pass.  In my home/basement, sits Subaru, Toyota, Sony, and lord only knows what else made in China, Korea, Japan, Mexico, Africa, Vietnam, etc, etc, blah, blah.

If HD was getting their subbed out parts made in Japan, they'd probably be having fewer problems.

[iski]

Interesting thread.  As Harley owners, some believe the price point for CVOs is too high in relation to the product offered at said price, but own them anyway. Reminds me of some Porsche discussions a few years back, but I digress.  Buyers remorse usually comes at a point after a sale - one of the logical progressions of the sales process on some items.  When the product doesn't perform as expected, it gets amplified. Then buyers either change brands or buying tactics.

Fact of the matter is, HD offers something beyond the raw steel, plastic, metal, and other components, as do other bike manufacturers.  BMWs are ugly as bowling shoes to me but a Beemer rider doesn't care about looks or to them they look ok.  Sales reflect the success or failure of bike manufacturing ventures, and currently HD enjoys the lion's share of the cruiser market in the USA.   If/when consumers decide another brand/product deserves that lion's share, it will shift.  BMW & Honda would love to have HD's market share on cruisers.  HD would love to have theirs. 

To claim CVOs are "overpriced" is an interesting claim.  If they are, then buyers would be quite scarce, and CVOs would sit on showroom floors awaiting buyers that never materialized.  The MoCo response could be to drop prices, or decrease production to better match demand to sales.  A CVO & a regular Harley for that matter are discretionary 2 wheel purchases for many.  Other forms of transportation are available at lower costs per mile.  Any university town has an army of mopeds or scoots, for example. 

The above 3 paragraphs are a semi-wordy way of saying CVOs are priced at what the market will bear.  If that price becomes too low for HD to make what they determine they should make in profit then guess what?  HD quits making CVOs.  Lots of things we use/buy we may consider to be "overpriced" but if we are repeatedly buying them, then that argument rings hollow. The value for some purchases reaches beyond dollars & cents.  Otherwise Bentley & Rolls Royce would be museum cars today instead of actively sold brands.  Not necessarily defending the MoCo here, but capitalism does not allow long term supply/demand vs price inequities to continue infinitely.  Unless its a federally mandated research or price support program or similar.... 

[Hoist!]

If price is based on Pig-iron used and performance output, HD would be out of business. But with HD you buy the "mystique", "lifestyle", "machine with a soul", etc! These are HD's long time die-hard followings. Once the mystique is gone, all bets are off. But that won't happen soon. That's the one thing HD knows they must maintain to do business this way. Even if they can't build a reliable engine!

I'd like to see every one of us give up our HD's because they aren't the best made, best performing bikes made. Yeah right!

As much as I bitch about the MoCo, I won't ride anything else. And don't think they don't know this. That's why they get away with continually screwing with us!

Hoist!

[RedDevil]

If price is based on Pig-iron used and performance output, HD would be out of business. But with HD you buy the "mystique", "lifestyle", "machine with a soul", etc! These are HD's long time die-hard followings. Once the mystique is gone, all bets are off. But that won't happen soon. That's the one thing HD knows they must maintain to do business this way. Even if they can't build a reliable engine!

I'd like to see every one of us give up our HD's because they aren't the best made, best performing bikes made. Yeah right!

As much as I bitch about the MoCo, I won't ride anything else. And don't think they don't know this. That's why they get away with continually screwing with us!

Hoist!

It's just you they're screwing with Howie.  They've been watching you, they know where you live. 
Cheers ,
 

[Midnight Rider]

All good things must come to an end though...the very first of the Baby Boomers are hitting 62 this year, so I think HD has about 10 more years to pedal the whole "ideology" thing.  The coming generations have grown up on Honda/Toyota, and other market brands that are predominantly reliable and trouble free.  I think the MOCO will find they are not hung up on the HD "experience" like we are, but rather expect a machine that will stay together, along with decent customer service, for a 35K price tag.  They may be initially attracted to the whole Harley "Thing", but the first time it spends 6 weeks at the dealer, and comes back worse than it was, it will be unloaded.

We grew up tinkering around with 57 Chevy's, old VW's, and the like...we're even attracted to the "tinkering" it takes to own a HD bike.  Most of the younger people I meet could give a chit (generalization on my part) about trying to "do it themselves".

Harley Davidson will either adapt, or fail, in the long run.  I'll probably be too old to ride by then, unless they offer trikes with a place to store some Depends...

That is just my opinion....

[IRyde]

All good things must come to an end though...the very first of the Baby Boomers are hitting 62 this year, so I think HD has about 10 more years to pedal the whole "ideology" thing.  The coming generations have grown up on Honda/Toyota, and other market brands that are predominantly reliable and trouble free.  I think the MOCO will find they are not hung up on the HD "experience" like we are, but rather expect a machine that will stay together, along with decent customer service, for a 35K price tag.  They may be initially attracted to the whole Harley "Thing", but the first time it spends 6 weeks at the dealer, and comes back worse than it was, it will be unloaded.

We grew up tinkering around with 57 Chevy's, old VW's, and the like...we're even attracted to the "tinkering" it takes to own a HD bike.  Most of the younger people I meet could give a chit (generalization on my part) about trying to "do it themselves".

Harley Davidson will either adapt, or fail, in the long run.  I'll probably be too old to ride by then, unless they offer trikes with a place to store some Depends...

That is just my opinion....

Intersting point.  Just out of curiosity, IF MoCo came out with a bagger that used the Revolution engine would anyone buy one?  I find it hard to believe MoCo has not offered this quite yet.  Maybe they are waiting for the FINAL death of the traditional V-Twin.  Be it environmental or quallity issues?

I think I might just be interested in getting one.

[sadunbar]

Intersting point.  Just out of curiosity, IF MoCo came out with a bagger that used the Revolution engine would anyone buy one?  I find it hard to believe MoCo has not offered this quite yet.  Maybe they are waiting for the FINAL death of the tradisitional V-Twin.  Be it environmental or quallity issues?

I think I might just be interested in getting one.

At this point I doubt I will buy another bagger until there is a water cooled motor on board...   I guarantee I will not be the guinea pig for another 110 experience....

Scott

[IRyde]

At this point I doubt I will buy another bagger until there is a water cooled motor on board...   I guarantee I will not be the guinea pig for another 110 experience....

Scott

I owned an '03 VROD for a bit.  It does apeal to a different crowd.  The younger crowd turns thier heads at them.  Maybe that is the future.

The only reason I off'd that thing was range and lack of places to put gear for trips.  The good point was power!  That thing felt and sounded like a Porsche in the higher RPM range. 

If that engine had a few more CI's and was in a bagger frame it might just be what the doctor ordered.  Someday?   

[Hoist!]

At this point I doubt I will buy another bagger until there is a water cooled motor on board...   I guarantee I will not be the guinea pig for another 110 experience....

Scott

Interesting! I didn't think one way or another about going thru another "110" thing. I didn't know I'd have to do it this time anyway. But I didn't give it too much thought when I had to build my own engine either. Was I thrilled that I HAD to spend the 5-6 grand on a new motor? HELL NO I WASN'T! But I probably would've spent a chunck of it anyway, even if the 110 was reliable as delivered. HD's lethargic factory engines always needed some help performance wise. Most will do A/C, pipes, cams, maybe headwork, etc. And with a good reliable factory engine, that's all strictly voluntary, instead of mandatory like with 110's. Don't mean you ain't spending the $$$ on you bike anyway!

And no, I won't buy a water-cooled bagger. Probably won't buy a water-cooled HD of any type. Actually, probably won't buy another new bike at all! The bikes I have now should go to the grave with me. We are seeing the end of an era. But that don't mean I'm changing with that! I'll just ride my '07 SERK3 ANTIQUE MOTORCYCLE til the end!!!

Hoist!

[sadunbar]

Interesting! I didn't think one way or another about going thru another "110" thing. I didn't know I'd have to do it this time anyway. But I didn't give it too much thought when I had to build my own engine either. Was I thrilled that I HAD to spend the 5-6 grand on a new motor? HELL NO I WASN'T! But I probably would've spent a chunck of it anyway, even if the 110 was reliable as delivered. HD's lethargic factory engines always needed some help performance wise. Most will do A/C, pipes, cams, maybe headwork, etc. And with a good reliable factory engine, that's all strictly voluntary, instead of mandatory like with 110's. Don't mean you ain't spending the $$$ on you bike anyway!

And no, I won't buy a water-cooled bagger. Probably won't buy a water-cooled HD of any type. Actually, probably won't buy another new bike at all! The bikes I have now should go to the grave with me. We are seeing the end of an era. But that don't mean I'm changing with that! I'll just ride my '07 SERK3 ANTIQUE MOTORCYCLE til the end!!!

Hoist!

Howie,

Not me....I have lots of new bikes in my future!!  I just think the days of air cooled motors that meet the current and future EPA requirements are about gone...  I haven't owned a new bike for more then 3 years in the last 20 years.  I have never bought a bike for an investment or worried about resale value.  I buy em, ride em, modify em, ride some more, modify some more, sell em and start over...  Other then the 110 motors in the current bikes, I have been more then happy with my bikes and the technology improvements over the years.  Sure - there are always minor issues  -  but overall I have enjoyed every minute of owning my bikes.  We will see what happens in the next couple of years - but I bet we are getting to the end of the air cooled era...  No antiques for me!

Scott

[grandpadoc]

Thanks to this this site I bought a 00 SERG and it will be my last air cooled Harley. My old kick start custom hardtail is still a hoot but my son has to start it for me (sportster knee). I love everything about my SE but have already run into obsolete replacement parts so its going to be hard to keep it bone stock. My personal feeling is the carborated E-motor was the last good engine Harley made and I will replace my twin cam with one when the time comes. The youngsters are really into old Harleys and have rejected the V-Rod. This situation has created a huge aftermarket industry which will keep the legend alive even if the MoCo doesn't have anything to sell folks anymore.
My next bike will be a liquid cooled SERG or nothing.    Doc

[iski]

All good things must come to an end though...the very first of the Baby Boomers are hitting 62 this year, so I think HD has about 10 more years to pedal the whole "ideology" thing.  The coming generations have grown up on Honda/Toyota, and other market brands that are predominantly reliable and trouble free.  I think the MOCO will find they are not hung up on the HD "experience" like we are, but rather expect a machine that will stay together, along with decent customer service, for a 35K price tag.  They may be initially attracted to the whole Harley "Thing", but the first time it spends 6 weeks at the dealer, and comes back worse than it was, it will be unloaded.

We grew up tinkering around with 57 Chevy's, old VW's, and the like...we're even attracted to the "tinkering" it takes to own a HD bike.  Most of the younger people I meet could give a chit (generalization on my part) about trying to "do it themselves".

Harley Davidson will either adapt, or fail, in the long run.  I'll probably be too old to ride by then, unless they offer trikes with a place to store some Depends...

That is just my opinion....

Agree with you here, Terry. The air cooled big twins were something I dreamed about owning someday, but back when money was REALLY tight, no way in he-double-L could I afford one.  So I bought Japanese street bikes & for fun ate Harleys for lunch for a while.  We were raised in an era where you could take down an engine with no computer modules to screw with.  Big dif now & working on them since the computer era has not been as much fun for me, frankly.  But I put up with it since they start on cold mornings better.  Simplification of something that used to REALLY aggravate me - fouled plugs on a freezing morning - now a thing of the past.

HD is not attracting younger buyers - so they come out with a trike (09 best guess?) for its perceived increase in overall market share, as any good marketing company would if they are paying attention.  The young whippersnappers want more bang for their buck & so far HD has not repositioned itself to attract that buyer demographic.  Apologies for the marketing-ese but I've been working on marketing stuff lately. Anyway, HD will either try to re-invent itself again, like it did disastrously in the 70's or spot on like it did in the 80's.  When the MoCo goes water cooled, everybody expects big dressers & the like to be w/c.  I bet they will look at some of that smaller more powerful engine Honda/Kawasaki/Yamaha/Suzuki market as well.  After all, they are chasing HD with cruisers of their own.

By now HD saw your post on Depends  & ignored it, but somebody at KURY is working on Depends for HD trikes with matching chrome trim.  MoCo will likely offer a more expensive Depends version in 2012, but you will have to buy their adapter to make sure they fit right. 

[SnakePlisken]

I consider myself a slight dummy. I paid the ultimate price for my CVO; but fu*k it it is what I wanted. In reality I think that the people that think they will get this or that chromed, engine , etc. are fuc*ed 'cause they pay for all this extra stuff when all you REALLY need is a CVO with new pipes.

- Jim