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[kona76]

I'm on my way to check out the rebuild at the newest location where the former owner of my performance shop is located, to check out the status first hand. He called me with some news which is of course, over my head as far as technical specifications are concerned. Seems like all things related to the rebuild are over my head.

Mark, the former owner who is taking charge of the project (If you remember, they closed doors, so no one is left to take charge anyway) relayed information regarding piston size. He said currently, the pistons purchased were J&E, a high end and high quality provider of pistons, and were "ten over (10 over)" a  common size easily acquired on the market. However, according to STD Development Co., the local and nationally respected machine shop for head work, Timken bearing upgrades etc. ... that I need "twenty over (20 over)", which would have been and is the correct pistons in the first place. The pistons are a 3 week waiting period, minimum.

I have no idea what 10 over or 20 over means, but I will follow up this post tonight with my findings.

Yet another humble moment in my education is about to occur.....



Mike K.
kona76

[sadunbar]

I'm on my way to check out the rebuild at the newest location where the former owner of my performance shop is located, to check out the status first hand. He called me with some news which is of course, over my head as far as technical specifications are concerned. Seems like all things related to the rebuild are over my head.

Mark, the former owner who is taking charge of the project (If you remember, they closed doors, so no one is left to take charge anyway) relayed information regarding piston size. He said currently, the pistons purchased were J&E, a high end and high quality provider of pistons, and were "ten over (10 over)" a  common size easily acquired on the market. However, according to STD Development Co., the local and nationally respected machine shop for head work, Timken bearing upgrades etc. ... that I need "twenty over (20 over)", which would have been and is the correct pistons in the first place. The pistons are a 3 week waiting period, minimum.

I have no idea what 10 over or 20 over means, but I will follow up this post tonight with my findings.

Yet another humble moment in my education is about to occur.....



Mike K.
kona76

Mike,

"10 over" and "20 over" means the size of your cylinder bore and pistons are either .010 (ten thousands of an inch) or .020 (twenty thousands of a inch) larger in diameter then the stock size.  For your motor to require .010 or .020 over stock size pistons, your cylinders would have to have been bored oversize at some point.

Scott

[AUSSIE_FLSTFSE]

I'm on my way to check out the rebuild at the newest location where the former owner of my performance shop is located, to check out the status first hand. He called me with some news which is of course, over my head as far as technical specifications are concerned. Seems like all things related to the rebuild are over my head.

Mark, the former owner who is taking charge of the project (If you remember, they closed doors, so no one is left to take charge anyway) relayed information regarding piston size. He said currently, the pistons purchased were J&E, a high end and high quality provider of pistons, and were "ten over (10 over)" a  common size easily acquired on the market. However, according to STD Development Co., the local and nationally respected machine shop for head work, Timken bearing upgrades etc. ... that I need "twenty over (20 over)", which would have been and is the correct pistons in the first place. The pistons are a 3 week waiting period, minimum.

I have no idea what 10 over or 20 over means, but I will follow up this post tonight with my findings.

Yet another humble moment in my education is about to occur.....



Mike K.
kona76

Kona,

What Scott has said is 100% correct, but this does still not explain your problem. It would appear at your first rebuild they bored your cylinders out 10thou to suit your new 10thou over high compression pistons. Now you are telling me they need to bore them another 10thou to suit another larger set of pistons.
This tells me a couple of things, firstly they decided that after the 7 or 8000 miles your bike had done before the first rebuild the bore was worn enough to require boring (this in itself seems very premature) & now after a further 3 - 4000 miles they need boring again! This second boring must be due to bore damage caused by the wrong pistons being fitted & incorrect clearances on assembly. Hence the failures you have been experiencing. I would expect any performance engine builder to double check all clearances on every build he does. Not to mention the guy doing the head work should have matched the chambers in the heads to the pistons & 'CC'ed them as well or the other way around the pistons matched to the heads. But it could also be a cam issue. The cam lift, duration & overlap can interfere with high compression domed pistons as well.

I am very interested & can not wait to read what they come back with this time + who is paying the bill this time?

Cheers
Aussie

[kona76]

Kona,

What Scott has said is 100% correct, but this does still not explain your problem. It would appear at your first rebuild they bored your cylinders out 10thou to suit your new 10thou over high compression pistons. Now you are telling me they need to bore them another 10thou to suit another larger set of pistons.
This tells me a couple of things, firstly they decided that after the 7 or 8000 miles your bike had done before the first rebuild the bore was worn enough to require boring (this in itself seems very premature) & now after a further 3 - 4000 miles they need boring again! This second boring must be due to bore damage caused by the wrong pistons being fitted & incorrect clearances on assembly. Hence the failures you have been experiencing. I would expect any performance engine builder to double check all clearances on every build he does. Not to mention the guy doing the head work should have matched the chambers in the heads to the pistons & 'CC'ed them as well or the other way around the pistons matched to the heads. But it could also be a cam issue. The cam lift, duration & overlap can interfere with high compression domed pistons as well.

I am very interested & can not wait to read what they come back with this time + who is paying the bill this time?Cheers
Aussie

Aussie,

Come on now Mike, you already know the answers to your question before you asked it..."asked and answered, Your Honor".  That's legal jargon for "you know!". Of course the answer is going to be me. Always; ultimately, me.

Today, I did finally make it to the shop {my days are extremely busy for a retired young man of 50 this year}, and spoke with "Mark".

He was explaining the situation about the heads being "out of round". Of course, he's referring to the unbalanced and unsymmetrical piston area that does need boring once again. I have met personally with STD's Craig, who will assure me the work will be done properly. New pistons are ordered, a new roller rocker arm support bracket has already been installed as I have received two SE Roller Rocker Arms from the Monterey County HD who owed me two arms (since Oct 2007) and brought them to Mark. Additional costs will be the Labor estimated by Mark to be in the $600-$700 range, Plus outside labor ...maybe $200-300 from the shops who are doing Head work, piston work, and so on. Part costs, as always will be up to my discretion, and I am not Fxxxing around this round. No part will enter my SE FatBoy without my approval, or without a price check.  Really, I am getting parts at a shops cost and paying for any shipping, just as I would when I shop in my home office.

The trick here now is getting the cost of replacement parts below market value or on terms that suits me tastes. I am old school at finding pricing that suits my applications; I procured computers, peripherals, software and components for almost 22 years, so I should be able to price check a small volume shop.

"OUT OF ROUND" , "10 OVER, 20 OVER", "BORING", "HEAD WORK" ......These terms meant so little to me before last summer and now hold importance of such great porportion my (now) $50,000 + SE FatBoy life is on the line holding on to those very words, bordering certain death....Yeah. Of a mechanic/tech I know and a dyno dude who was worthless from day one........


2-3 weeks and I'll post up the results. It feels unreal to think I have to spend another $1,000.00 or more for my SEFB, taking my words " I Love That Bike" to a whole new defining realm....sounds like Star Trek, huh?


Mike K.
kona76

[Hoist!]

Aussie,

Come on now Mike, you already know the answers to your question before you asked it..."asked and answered, Your Honor".  That's legal jargon for "you know!". Of course the answer is going to be me. Always; ultimately, me.

Today, I did finally make it to the shop {my days are extremely busy for a retired young man of 50 this year}, and spoke with "Mark".

He was explaining the situation about the heads being "out of round". Of course, he's referring to the unbalanced and unsymmetrical piston area that does need boring once again. I have met personally with STD's Craig, who will assure me the work will be done properly. New pistons are ordered, a new roller rocker arm support bracket has already been installed as I have received two SE Roller Rocker Arms from the Monterey County HD who owed me two arms (since Oct 2007) and brought them to Mark. Additional costs will be the Labor estimated by Mark to be in the $600-$700 range, Plus outside labor ...maybe $200-300 from the shops who are doing Head work, piston work, and so on. Part costs, as always will be up to my discretion, and I am not Fxxxing around this round. No part will enter my SE FatBoy without my approval, or without a price check.  Really, I am getting parts at a shops cost and paying for any shipping, just as I would when I shop in my home office.

The trick here now is getting the cost of replacement parts below market value or on terms that suits me tastes. I am old school at finding pricing that suits my applications; I procured computers, peripherals, software and components for almost 22 years, so I should be able to price check a small volume shop.

"OUT OF ROUND" , "10 OVER, 20 OVER", "BORING", "HEAD WORK" ......These terms meant so little to me before last summer and now hold importance of such great porportion my (now) $50,000 + SE FatBoy life is on the line holding on to those very words, bordering certain death....Yeah. Of a mechanic/tech I know and a dyno dude who was worthless from day one........


2-3 weeks and I'll post up the results. It feels unreal to think I have to spend another $1,000.00 or more for my SEFB, taking my words " I Love That Bike" to a whole new defining realm....sounds like Star Trek, huh?


Mike K.
kona76

Mike, I have some concerns about what you're being told to do here. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I do have these concerns. I've never heard of heads being out of round, especially on engines with flat top pistons.  The piston rises into to create the "squish"area to produce the designed compression, but does not go up and down inside the head. I can understand him saying that about the cylinders, but if they're that bad, I'd not spend all that money to fix that with machine work and oversized pistons. With the money you're spending, getting a new set of Axtell cylinders will do much more for your reliability than going 0.020" over in piston size. Bear in mind, by doing that, you've reduced your cylinder wall by the same amount. 0.020" over typically means that this is the 3rd time it's being done. First would be 0.005" over, then 0.010" over, the 0.020" over. 0.030" over is max.

I think you need to better understand, or have someone on your "team", that can decipher what's being proposed to you. They could be offering to do the right thing in the most cost effective manner. Or they could be giving you the highest margin project they can propose. You need to know the difference. You need someone on your side who can evaluate their recommendation, and make sure you're getting the most bang for the buck, not them.

I'm not trying to be critical of what they're recommending. But going only by what you post, I have some reservations about some of this stuff at this time. Hopefully this red flag allows you to see what you might be missing here. After all, you don't know whaty you don't know!

Hoist!

[kona76]

Hoist,

Thank you. As I have stated too many times, this was to be a learning experience. and I'll tell ya first hand, I'm just not knowing what I need to know.

And my team, well you all are my team. I have little faith in this area of expertise, due to the variety of input I have received. The trust I have is based on this site, and our members. I can only try to relay the explanation I hear from the performance mechanic at this time.

Therefore, I will copy the post you have taken the time to submit, take it to the shop where the work is being done, and let him inform me further. I will update the post after translating his response.


Good looking out Brother.


Mike K.
kona76

[Hoist!]

Hoist,

Thank you. As I have stated too many times, this was to be a learning experience. and I'll tell ya first hand, I'm just not knowing what I need to know.

And my team, well you all are my team. I have little faith in this area of expertise, due to the variety of input I have received. The trust I have is based on this site, and our members. I can only try to relay the expalination I hear from the performance mechanic at this time.

Therefore, I will copy the post you have taken the time to submit, take it to the shop where the work is being done, and let him inform me further. I will update the post after translating his response.


Good looking out Brother.


Mike K.
kona76

Mike, I'll PM you my number. Feel free to call me if you'd like to discuss it at all.

Hoist!