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Author Topic: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ  (Read 153497 times)

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Hoist!

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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #720 on: November 28, 2008, 04:15:17 PM »

Oops! And I forgot! The new Oil Cooler Core! :2vrolijk_21:

That's it for now. More as things progress! ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #721 on: November 30, 2008, 10:34:27 PM »

Hoist,

I’ve been trying to catch up on the issues with your SERK and I see that things got a little carried away in Twin Cam; that tends to happen sometimes!

Can you tell me if your tappet roller issue looks anything like the attached photo?

djkak
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Hoist!

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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #722 on: December 01, 2008, 08:45:58 AM »

Hoist,

I’ve been trying to catch up on the issues with your SERK and I see that things got a little carried away in Twin Cam; that tends to happen sometimes!

Can you tell me if your tappet roller issue looks anything like the attached photo?

djkak

It was similar dj. But it was completely flat on one side of the roller as if it had not been spinning.But to my surprise, the bearing felt fine and the wheel still spun free. That pic seems to show flat spots in more than 1 place. :nixweiss:

Hoist! 8)
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Jock

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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #723 on: December 01, 2008, 09:01:38 PM »

WOW!  Nice!
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #724 on: December 02, 2008, 09:12:00 AM »

As they say, picture worth a thousand dollar$
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Hoist!

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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #725 on: December 02, 2008, 09:18:36 AM »

As they say, picture worth a thousand dollar$

HeHe!!! Or more Phil!!! :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #726 on: December 02, 2008, 12:30:40 PM »

Hoist,

I’ve been trying to catch up on the issues with your SERK and I see that things got a little carried away in Twin Cam; that tends to happen sometimes!

Can you tell me if your tappet roller issue looks anything like the attached photo?

djkak

djkak,

What was the diagnosis of the failure shown in your picture?

Scott
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djkak

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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #727 on: December 02, 2008, 09:20:52 PM »

It is always nice to have a look at the failed components prior to taking a stand on the possible root cause of a failure. As long as I don’t have any skin in outcome, I’m comfortable going out on a limb with this one. :)

The short answer is that IMHO, the camshaft and tappet failure began with a failure of the bearing in the tappet roller. There is an outside chance that a foreign object somehow became lodged, seizing the roller, but that is a stretch. It is my sense that the tappet roller from your machine isn’t squared off like one pictured because the square roller was run longer in a failed state. I recommend that you take into consideration that both Harley-Davidson and Jim’s Machining have changed the material (H-D) and construction (Jim’s) of the lifter in order to resolve issues with failed rollers in high performance Twin Cam applications. If you still have your lifters, it is a simple matter to drill off the end of the axle pins to remove them and visually inspect the bearings, rollers and races.

The long answer is that prior to the mid 1980’s it was not at all uncommon for a tappet roller bearing to fail, sometimes resulting in a squared off roller. This failure always destroyed the camshaft, sending pieces of motor mulch to the bottom of the gearcase. IMHO the tappet roller was easily the weakest link in the late Shovels and early EVO’s. Machines built prior to ’73 had other components competing for the title of “Weakest Link”.

Reliability issues with the early tappets resulted from a tolerance stack-up in the tappet body and the roller’s inner bearing race. It appears that manufacturing the inner bearing race with an axle pin parallel to the bearing surface was a significant challenge. The separate inner bearing race was eliminated in the later EVO lifter, and the axle pin was utilized for the inner race. The result of eliminating the separate inner race was dramatic, and now this failure is practically unheard of in stock and mild performance applications. This is remarkable when you consider the number of machines in service during that period relative to today. I bring this history up to point out that there was a time when the failure that you experienced was commonplace, and that the issue was resolved with a redesign of the tappet roller.

Today the issue with the Twin Cam tappet rollers in modified machinery is the result of increased load. The load is generated from the big valve springs, aggressive cam profiles and high engine speeds. Once again the focus at H-D and Jim’s is on the tappet roller. H-D no longer sources their Screamin’ Eagle lifters from Jim’s and Jim’s modified their lifters to include pressurized lubrication of the tappet roller bearing.

After the meltdown in the camchest of my ’02 gear driven 113” Twin Cam, I discarded my Screamin’ Eagle/Jim’s lifters and installed a set of Feuling lifters which I ran for a couple of hundred miles. After depositing the Feuling’s in the landfill, I dropped in a set of OEM lifters and haven’t looked back.

My recommendation, Hoist is to put the machine back together with your existing crankcase, either the stock OEM lifter, H-D Screamin’ Eagle lifter or the Jim’s lifter with pressure fed tappet roller lubrication. I urge you to run removable pushrods and remove and perform an external inspection of the lifters at 5,000 miles. At no more than 10,000 miles I recommend removing the lifters and disassembling the rollers to perform a visual inspection of the needle bearings and races. If the rollers pass the visual inspection I would buy another set of the same lifter, install them and relax a little.

As I mentioned earlier, I am running OEM lifters in my 113, and I have another big engine that will run the Jim’s Power Glide 2’s; at least until I see a reason to change them. I will go through the same inspection ritual on my personal machinery that I recommended for you.

Regarding Alan from Fueling explaining that the camshaft centers of their camplate do not line up with the centers in the H-D crankcase. That seems to me a little like saying “the sky is occasionally blue”; of course they don’t line up. It is unlikely that Fueling uses the same technical plan or Blueprint that Harley-Davidson uses. Does H-D share their technical drawings/Blueprints with Feuling? Maybe Feuling based their Prints on a Twin Cam engine that they acquired; if so, was that engine manufactured somewhere close to H-D’s Print specification, or near and possibly beyond the tolerance limit(s)? The issue is aftermarket fitment 101 and whether H-D shares intellectual property with Fueling. My sense is that H-D does not, and if that is true then it is unlikely that there is a high degree of relative precision when comparing the various center points on Feuling’s camplate with the same points on H-D’s crankcases.

Consider the complexity of the manufacturing process with EVO’s and earlier machines with removable tappet blocks. Also consider the high number of variables that must be controlled during the manufacturing process in order to produce consistent, precision alignment of the gearcase components in these early machines. It is my sense that relative to the EVO, precision alignment in the Twin Cam’s camchest is a non issue.

The attachment’s four images are:
Top Left - separate inner bearing race used on the early EVO tappet rollers. Shovelhead and earlier are the same except smaller roller OD.
Bottom Left – late style EVO without separate inner race.
Center - early EVO lifter with inner race in full fail mode.
Right – just for grins, a tappet roller from an early Knuckle which didn’t use needle bearings.

As always this is just my humble opinion.

djkak
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #728 on: December 02, 2008, 09:29:50 PM »

djkak,

Care to offer an opinion of the S&S limited travel roller lifter?

Scott
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Hoist!

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    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #729 on: December 02, 2008, 09:51:50 PM »

HeHe!!! Great to have ya back! I missed this chit here dj!!! :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:

Feuling has the lifters, cams and pushrods back, as they're standing behind the parts. They're replacing the cams also. They asked for Vern to take those case measurements. Vern doesn't believe it's the cases either. He likes the S&S lifters Scott asked about above, so I am curious what you thoughts are on them too.

But basically you feel that I have to test the lifters in my motor til I get ones that hold up? I would think that there are quality lifters out there to hold up to Hoist's abuse (and yours too ;D )! The motor was running great, and was still running when it was removed from service. Never had failures like this on Evos, but never ran a 110 Evo yet either. I will be soon though in my WG!!! ;)

Well there's nothing like a thorough dj explanation to get the technical juices flowing again! And few can be argued with, if any! As always, thanks for the help man! :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #730 on: December 03, 2008, 01:10:21 AM »

djkak,

Care to offer an opinion of the S&S limited travel roller lifter?

Scott

I don’t have any experience with the S&S lifter, but your field experience is as good as anyone’s. The field test outlined in the previous post will return valuable information about the potential durability of a lifter. I wouldn’t perform a destructive test unless the lifters had between 5k and 10k miles, or there was an obvious indication that there was something wrong.

In my experience the intake lifters fail before the exhaust. Apparently the intakes receive less lubrication than the exhausts due to shrouding inside the camchest; the rear intake seems to consistently fail before the others.

When I first began hearing about the Twin Cam tappet roller failures, more often than not the failure resulted in irreparable crankcase damage. When mine failed, that was not the case and Hoist’s crankcase is ok, but either way when highly modified machines like this soil their nest it’s a real big deal. If it takes the dissection of a set of $250 lifters to sort things, out that would be ok, because the $250 wouldn’t cover the gratuity on a camchest explosion that required crankcases to mop up.

djkak
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #731 on: December 03, 2008, 01:20:22 AM »

I would think that there are quality lifters out there to hold up to Hoist's abuse (and yours too ;D )!
Hoist! 8)

Didn’t I read here that you tried driving 56mph once, but didn’t like it so you slowed right back down?

djkak
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 02:21:10 AM by djkak »
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bisounours

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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #732 on: December 03, 2008, 03:03:13 AM »

Good morning Djkak,

Do you've an opinion about these ?
Hydro-Rev™ Hydraulic Lifters
These lifters feaure a unique hydraulic anti-pump up race retainer designed to precisely limit plunger travel and replace the cheesy OEM retaining clip. The roller and axle are manufactured of bearing quality carbon/chromium steel and feature needle bearings for ultra smooth rotation. The pushrod seat is carbo-nitrided for extreme durability and the lifter body itself is a high quality, super strong steel billet body, CNC machined for strength and durability. These lifters also carry a lifetime warranty! If the lifter ever fails we replace free of charge!


 http://www.revperf.com/Products/valvetrain.html

Thanks
Jacques


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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #733 on: December 03, 2008, 08:51:26 AM »

I don’t have any experience with the S&S lifter, but your field experience is as good as anyone’s. The field test outlined in the previous post will return valuable information about the potential durability of a lifter. I wouldn’t perform a destructive test unless the lifters had between 5k and 10k miles, or there was an obvious indication that there was something wrong.

In my experience the intake lifters fail before the exhaust. Apparently the intakes receive less lubrication than the exhausts due to shrouding inside the camchest; the rear intake seems to consistently fail before the others.

When I first began hearing about the Twin Cam tappet roller failures, more often than not the failure resulted in irreparable crankcase damage. When mine failed, that was not the case and Hoist’s crankcase is ok, but either way when highly modified machines like this soil their nest it’s a real big deal. If it takes the dissection of a set of $250 lifters to sort things, out that would be ok, because the $250 wouldn’t cover the gratuity on a camchest explosion that required crankcases to mop up.

djkak

One of my winter projects is to pull my lifters, pushrods, rocker arms and cams for inspection....  I have about 5000 miles on the combination.  I have no reason to suspect any issues - but it's winter and snowing - so it seems like a prudent way to occupy my time!
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #734 on: December 03, 2008, 09:28:44 AM »

Hey Howie, didn't you say you had an oil pressure problem around the time you also had this problem? I can't find it here in the thread, but did the oil pressure problem happen before the lifter noise started? Could the low oil pressure caused the lifter to collapse or get spongy and with high lift cams with shorter duration cause the lifter to come off the cam and maybe start this problem?

Guess at this point that's water under the bridge!

Craig
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 09:42:35 AM by Talon »
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