Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ultrafxr]

To start with the O2 bias table or tables depending on which bike you have can be adjusted in our software to a larger range than you should use. That said a switching sensor will work from about 400 mv - 650mv range. This will get you a 14.8 - 14.2 AFR range. Let's forget the Air Fuel ratio value of 14.6 and just think of that value turns the Closed loop system on. So you set AFR to 14.6 (closed loop on) and then set O2 bias to 450 mv. This tells the system you want a Air fuel ratio of about 14.68. So now you adjust the VE values to get you there. Once completed the VE values are set. Now you change the O2 bias value to 650 mv with the Air Fuel Ratio table still at 14.6 (closed loop on) you will need to reset the VE values to move the mixture to the new setting and you will end up with about 14.3 being you new ratio. Maybe this explains it better.

The AFR table just turns the closed loop system on at 14.6, any other value turns it off. In the real world you would set the VE table and O2 bias table so you got 14.6 and leave it alone. Then when you adjusted the AFR table the system would give you what you asked for. With the O2 bias we can skew or shift things by setting the bias value to something other than 450 mv.

You do not have to use the new Vtune program if you do not want too.

So does a change to the closed loop bias table change the VE values to alter the AFR.

[sportygordy]

To start with the O2 bias table or tables depending on which bike you have can be adjusted in our software to a larger range than you should use. That said a switching sensor will work from about 400 mv - 650mv range. This will get you a 14.8 - 14.2 AFR range. Let's forget the Air Fuel ratio value of 14.6 and just think of that value turns the Closed loop system on. So you set AFR to 14.6 (closed loop on) and then set O2 bias to 450 mv. This tells the system you want a Air fuel ratio of about 14.68. So now you adjust the VE values to get you there. Once completed the VE values are set. Now you change the O2 bias value to 650 mv with the Air Fuel Ratio table still at 14.6 (closed loop on) you will need to reset the VE values to move the mixture to the new setting and you will end up with about 14.3 being you new ratio. Maybe this explains it better.

The AFR table just turns the closed loop system on at 14.6, any other value turns it off. In the real world you would set the VE table and O2 bias table so you got 14.6 and leave it alone. Then when you adjusted the AFR table the system would give you what you asked for. With the O2 bias we can skew or shift things by setting the bias value to something other than 450 mv.

You do not have to use the new Vtune program if you do not want too.

O.K. so i don't think i am as confused as i thought. The Narrow Band sensors are required to work with V-Tune data and will only provide a AFR range of 14.0- 14.8, within their capable range. For those of us that want to tune AFR's tables in the 13.0 - 14.0 range, V-Tune data is not going to work but we can still adjust these AFR's into the ECM with TTS. So it would be suggested we use something like Twin Scan to assist our turning in the 13.0 - 14.0 range... Right!!

[Unbalanced]

The closed loop bias tables allow you to tune from the low to the high of 14.2 in my experience to 14.8.  On a dyno jet I was never able to get it below 14.2 with the original SERT dongle.
You should use the closed loop bias table you set your VE's so that you can then go back in to your regular AFR table the main one and set your desired fuel there whether it be to follow the closed loop by leaving it at 14.6 to 1 which triggers the closed loop or go in and set it for whatever your desired A/F ratio is.

The whole idea here is to get your VE's set correctly.   Whether you do it with a Wego or dyno or closed loop data gathering.

[rednectum]

To start with the O2 bias table or tables depending on which bike you have can be adjusted in our software to a larger range than you should use. That said a switching sensor will work from about 400 mv - 650mv range. This will get you a 14.8 - 14.2 AFR range. Let's forget the Air Fuel ratio value of 14.6 and just think of that value turns the Closed loop system on. So you set AFR to 14.6 (closed loop on) and then set O2 bias to 450 mv. This tells the system you want a Air fuel ratio of about 14.68. So now you adjust the VE values to get you there. Once completed the VE values are set. Now you change the O2 bias value to 650 mv with the Air Fuel Ratio table still at 14.6 (closed loop on) you will need to reset the VE values to move the mixture to the new setting and you will end up with about 14.3 being you new ratio. Maybe this explains it better.

The AFR table just turns the closed loop system on at 14.6, any other value turns it off. In the real world you would set the VE table and O2 bias table so you got 14.6 and leave it alone. Then when you adjusted the AFR table the system would give you what you asked for. With the O2 bias we can skew or shift things by setting the bias value to something other than 450 mv.

You do not have to use the new Vtune program if you do not want too.

cool, a no-hardware trim POT!!  J/K   thanks for the answer Steve.   one more please. at what load/rpm/throttle position will closed loop typically occur?   how would one guarantee to stay in closed loop (if searching best economy) on a typical road trip?

thanks again

[Steve Cole]

Sunny Southern California

[sportygordy]

Sunny Southern California

it's dern smogy there....

[Steve Cole]

it's dern smogy there....

Yes, it can be but being located on the coast solves most of that and the view walking down the beach in the summer is pretty nice.

[rednectum]

was looking for a really good answer for the closed loop guys-----those that believe the new bikes actually run closed loop through mountains, across the city, passing semi, etc:

[Doc 1]

was looking for a really good answer for the closed loop guys-----those that believe the new bikes actually run closed loop through mountains, across the city, passing semi, etc:

The bike runs in closed loop up to 90kPa...depending on the cam over lap, throttle position, and load 90kPa can be reached very quickly or all the way to 80% TP. In other words I can hit 90kPa at 5% throttle in first gear at 20 mph a lot quicker than I can at 50% throttle in 5th gear at 80 mph. Going up a hill at 60 mph might be in open loop vs going down a hill at 60 mph would remain in closed loop.

[Steve Cole]

Once the VE's are properly adjusted using the AFR table to adjust the mixture is all you need to do. You can use a narrow band sensors if you like but it is really unnecessary. If you have a dyno and are going to adjust for peak power you move the mixture at WOT using the PE AFR table until you get peak power. Once there richen the engine back up about .5 AFR, this is to keep the engine from overheating and build in some safety. Without a dyno it is much the same. Open DataMaster and do a dyno recording. Ride the bike in 3rd or 4th gear which ever you have enough open road for. Lug the motor down to 2000 RPM and go WOT for as long as you can. If you can get to 6200 then back it down. Save the recorded data and view it in Datamaster. Find your acceleration run in the viewer and zoom in on it so you can see the start and stop of that area on the screen. Go under the "View" tab and open the "Dyno Graph" Select your bike and enter your weight in the Rider+ Payload area. Then select which gear you made you run in. Click "OK" when completed. Now on the main Graph click the courser to a position just after you started the run, click the "Set Start Rec" button. Now go to the end of the of the acceleration and move the courser to just before the end of the run, click the "Set End Rec" button. Now look at the lower right side of the Dyno screen and click the "Plot Data" button. This will give you a graph of the estimate torque and Hp of your combination. Now the numbers are close provided you have given the calculator all the proper information but to be honest it really does not matter for what we are trying to do here. Now that you have a baseline you can change the tune and then rerun the test again but make sure you use the exact same setup in the calculator and the exact same gear as before. If you have made an improvement it will show an increase and if you went backwards it will show that as well. If you point on the dyno graph and click on it you will get a line and it will give the HP and Torque at that spot. You can move the line just by clicking on a different spot on the graph. So you have the tools with our product to do a complete tuneup fo your combination.

[Sean M Cary]

Any idea when the upgrade path will be offered?

[sportygordy]

Steve,, thanks for the tuning tips.. been waiting for that. 

[rednectum]

The bike runs in closed loop up to 90kPa...depending on the cam over lap, throttle position, and load 90kPa can be reached very quickly or all the way to 80% TP. In other words I can hit 90kPa at 5% throttle in first gear at 20 mph a lot quicker than I can at 50% throttle in 5th gear at 80 mph. Going up a hill at 60 mph might be in open loop vs going down a hill at 60 mph would remain in closed loop.

thanks doc!

[Steve Cole]

The upgrade system will not be done until next month most likely. Currently we are working on the 2009 bikes and have Mastertune just about done. Testing will start late this week or beginning of next week. Once it's finished then we will go back to complete the SERT upgrade to Mastertune product.

[RK2000]

Steve. Has the update been released for those of us who have existing dongles?