Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dan_Lockwood]

A while back there was a thread that addressed the somewhat high 1st gear in the HD 6 speeds.  It used a non compensator splined V-Rod sprocket and chain.

While I'm not complaining.... much, I would like just a bit lower 1st gear with the wife on the back and loaded etc. (The bags and TP that is, not the wife...)

When I rented the '07 EG in Hawaii last summer it was very hard to negotiate some of very steep turnbacks climbing up from the ocean.  Some of those narrow blacktop streets are so steep the 1st gear and lots of clutch was needed.

Even though the 110" has good torque to pull the 6th gear at the mid 60's, it wouldn't hurt my feelings to lose a little top end for more low end.

So other than the new Baker 7 speed with the even lower 1st gear, are there any other options?  Smaller motor sprocket, larger clutch basket sprocket?  I'm not familiar with the rear drive, in that I'm not sure what's available to change in ratios, if any.  IF, that was an option, what does one do to recalibrate the speedo?  Are there plug and tune boxes to "tune" the speedo?

I looked for a trans section but one didn't show itself.  So I thought I'd throw it out here for a general CVO discussion.

I'm not what I would do if available, but still, I'd like just a little more in the rev department to get going.

Thanks.

[Coyote.]

You can use one of these http://evoindusa.uia.net/index.php/cPath/10_33?osCsid=ec311c721b5453e477ab221f92c2b3ca

I have a set I can make you a good deal on. I had it in my bike for about 7k miles. Took it out when I did a motor rebuild. I have enough torque now I didn't need it on the low end. Changing the front motor sprocket and chain does not effect the speedo. If you change something behind the tranny, your speedo will be off. As far as I know, you can't fix it (unless you have a Tmax installed)

[Dan_Lockwood]

You can use one of these http://evoindusa.uia.net/index.php/cPath/10_33?osCsid=ec311c721b5453e477ab221f92c2b3ca

I have a set I can make you a good deal on. I had it in my bike for about 7k miles. Took it out when I did a motor rebuild. I have enough torque now I didn't need it on the low end. Changing the front motor sprocket and chain does not effect the speedo. If you change something behind the tranny, your speedo will be off. As far as I know, you can't fix it (unless you have a Tmax installed)

I should have been more specific, like you said from the trans back only screws with the speedo.

With this on the bike did you get a better get up and go with a load on the bike?  Also without the compensator did you notice any difference in vibration?  I see they also have a clutch sprocket/ring gear assembly that splits the difference between stock and the motor sprocket you've used.

My 110" has the low end torque but I still have to slip the clutch a bit and as soon as I leave a stop light the motor drops in revs, so I'm just doing some thinking about what options might be available.

If you can, let me know how it handled compared to the stock setup.  Is your bike an '07 or '08?  Does yours have the IDS installed if it's an '07?

Thanks for the reply.

I'll keep you offer in mind.

[SPIDERMAN]

You can change the gearing a lot of ways. Primary (comp sproket )  Trans (final drive sproket) and rear wheel pulley. I'm not going to recommend any of the three , instead, you should stop by a good independant shop in your area and discuss your riding style and what specifically you want the bike to do that it doesn't on the other matter, S&S offers a speedo recalibrator that will take care of your speedo issues.

B B

[Coyote.]

I should have been more specific, like you said from the trans back only screws with the speedo.

With this on the bike did you get a better get up and go with a load on the bike?  Also without the compensator did you notice any difference in vibration?  I see they also have a clutch sprocket/ring gear assembly that splits the difference between stock and the motor sprocket you've used.

My 110" has the low end torque but I still have to slip the clutch a bit and as soon as I leave a stop light the motor drops in revs, so I'm just doing some thinking about what options might be available.

If you can, let me know how it handled compared to the stock setup.  Is your bike an '07 or '08?  Does yours have the IDS installed if it's an '07?

Thanks for the reply.

I'll keep you offer in mind.

You will definitely notice a difference taking off with the smaller front motor sprocket. But you will have the same effect in 6th gear. One of the things I liked was how much more usable 6th gear was with it. Also, I never needed to down shift out of 6th to pass. Of course, your rpms are higher when cruising. I can't say I noticed a mpg difference.

As to the vibration, it definitely adds to it when you're below 2800 rpm. The bike ran fine but it gave the false sense of lugging the motor below 2900 rpm. I added the IDS and all that went away. So I would say if you remove the compensator, you need to add the IDS for rideability. JMO.

[SPIDERMAN]

You can use one of these http://evoindusa.uia.net/index.php/cPath/10_33?osCsid=ec311c721b5453e477ab221f92c2b3ca

H-D sells a similar unit for $139. It changes final gearing by 19% however. You'd end up with what you want in the lower gears Dan, definitely adds a lot of grunt down low but 6th gear would be like 5th in a 5 speed. That's why I said, you need to go to a good solid Indy shop and talk with somebody that understands all of the ways to accomplish gear changes. If you pressed me, I'd tell you to change the final drive sprocket on your trans, but maybe changing the rear belt pulley would work for what you need. Depending on how you ride, the H-D $139 primary kit might do the trick. Bottom line is don't jump into this without a bunch of homework

B B

[Hoist!]

You can change the gearing a lot of ways. Primary (comp sproket )  Trans (final drive sproket) and rear wheel pulley. I'm not going to recommend any of the three , instead, you should stop by a good independant shop in your area and discuss your riding style and what specifically you want the bike to do that it doesn't on the other matter, S&S offers a speedo recalibrator that will take care of your speedo issues.

B B

You can't change tranny side gearing on '07/'08's like you could on earlier models. Ther's a non-comp engine sprocket w/new chain, from Evo Industries, as previously stated. But you can't play with both for different gearing like before. The '07/'08s have been heavily changed and patented by HD to screw up the aftermarket. Give it time though. I'm sure they'll come up with things down the road.

Hoist!

[SPIDERMAN]

You can't change tranny side gearing on '07/'08's like you could on earlier models. Ther's a non-comp engine sprocket w/new chain, from Evo Industries, as previously stated. But you can't play with both for different gearing like before. The '07/'08s have been heavily changed and patented by HD to screw up the aftermarket. Give it time though. I'm sure they'll come up with things down the road.

Hoist!

Or you can always build the motor with enough torque that the gearing don't matter

B B

[Dan_Lockwood]

H-D sells a similar unit for $139. It changes final gearing by 19% however. You'd end up with what you want in the lower gears Dan, definitely adds a lot of grunt down low but 6th gear would be like 5th in a 5 speed. That's why I said, you need to go to a good solid Indy shop and talk with somebody that understands all of the ways to accomplish gear changes. If you pressed me, I'd tell you to change the final drive sprocket on your trans, but maybe changing the rear belt pulley would work for what you need. Depending on how you ride, the H-D $139 primary kit might do the trick. Bottom line is don't jump into this without a bunch of homework

B B

I appreciate all the feedback and I do understand the results would definitely help me out, regardless of the approach.

I'm a little confused though on your comment above.  In the HD 5 speed and 6 speed, I thought top gear was still a 1:1 direct drive, not an over ratio.  But dropping the speed, or raising the rpms 19% in any given gear may be too much.

Even with my old '76 FLH 4 speed and its 2.94 1st gear versus the 3.34 1st gear for the new SERK, I can still get going easier than with the SERK.  On the FLH I can just give it a bit of throttle from a stop light and when the clutch is out you go from stopped to right away moving and increasing the revs, it doesn't drop revs once the clutch is all out like on the SERK.  I know that the primary and final ratios on the FLH are way lower than on the SERK as it has been tweaked upward to get the affect of an O/D in 6th without actually having an O/D in the trans.  This is great but they could have dropped the O/D affect a bit or went to a wide ratio trans with a slightly lower 1st gear.  I think of what GM did with the 700R4 when they released it as an economy O/D trans to get lots better gas mileage.  With its 30% O/D ratio and usually they put it in cars/trucks with a 2.73 rear gear, it did great to lower the final cruise rpms, but without the super low 1st gear of a 3.06, you wouldn't be able to move the cars without lots of gas being used to get them moving.  A standard trans of the era had a 1st gear of in the 2.5 area.  So if a super low gear worked there, a slightly smaller compromise might have been reached in the MOCO R&D before the 6 speed Cruise Drive was released.  I'm sure the 1st gear issue would have been on the list of "maybe we should look at this" one more time etc.

Don't get me wrong, the new bike has tons more torque and get up & go than the old FLH, but at the same parking lot speeds, the SERK is way lower in rpms.  Like I said in Hawaii when riding the '07 EG 96" with the same trans as my new SERK, I had issues with the very slow uphill speeds we had to do and slipping the clutch was mandatory or it would have stalled out and on those steep hills we would have dropped the bike.  Even on my new SERK coming off the ferry boat going into Illinois the ramp is very steep up hill and I can't ride fast so I have to slip the clutch to keep it running and moving.  Another good example would be if you were in a parade at 2 or 3 mph, the FLH would just be idling along with the clutch fully engaged and on the SERK you would need to be slipping the clutch to stay going that slow.

Unlike probably most of you, I carry a bit of "extra" weight, about #275, and my wife probably #180 (haven't seen nor have I been told lately, if you know what I mean).  So when I say we're loaded with the bags and TP, we still have US to carry.  Once the bike is running I've been able to go around and up roads with my wife on that in the past with the FLH I'd have to downshift into 2nd gear and on the SERK I can go the same speeds in 4th without lugging the bike.  Now granted, if I were to hit that slow speed around the turn and up the hill and give the SERK full throttle, it would be lugging and knocking like nobody's business; but I just ease into it and it increases and pulls just fine.

To bad I just can't crank on a ratio box at the rear wheel until I find that magic spot and then make the mechanical changes necessary.

I know all riding styles are different, but I feel there are lots of late model ('07/'08) touring owners that would like the same thing, just a bit lower 1st gear.

See post below for the end... FINALLY!!!!!!

[Dan_Lockwood]

Here it is, the end... FINALLY.... I just can't shut the f@&k up!!!!

Ultimately the new Baker 7 speed addresses that very issue, among others.

This information came from Cyril Huze Blog http://www.cyrilhuzeblog.com/2008/03/11/breaking-news-baker-drivetrain-about-to-launch-a-7-speed-transmission/
and Baker's website: http://www.bakerdrivetrain.com/cruisedrive/index.htm#dd7

The Baker DD7 is being developed as a direct replacement of the Cruise Drive Harley-Davidson factory 6-speed to improve it in many ways. 1- Factory 1st gear ratio is too tall (numerically too small). The DD7 has a shorter (numerically larger) 1st gear for easier launches. 2- Shift clunk. In transmission design, be it automotive or motorcycle, low mainshaft weight is always desirable for smooth and quiet shifts. Audible shift clunk in the factory 6-speed is caused by the heavy weight and resultant high inertia of the 1-piece forged mainshaft. That mainshaft is a one-piece design that includes1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears. The DD7 mainshaft is light weight and only includes the small 1st gear as an integral part. 3- Shift smoothness. Shift smoothness in the factory 6-speed is a definite improvement over the 5-speed. The DD7 is a big improvement over the factory 6-speed because it incorporates a new linear roller ball detent as part of the supplied Billet Top Cover. This linear roller ball detent is similar to the type first used in Baker TorqueBox transmissions. 4- Gear noise. The factory 6-speed has straight cut 1st and 5th gears. This yields gear noise in 1st and 5th.The Baker DD7 has a full set of helical gears for quiet operation in every gear.

The Harley-Davidson factory 6-speed ratios are: 1st (3.34), 2nd (2.30), 3rd (1.71), 4th (1.41), 5th (1.18), 6th (1.00). The Baker DD7 transmission will have the following ratios : 1st (3.76), 2nd (2.75), 3rd (2.06), 4th (1.55), 5th   (1.27), 6th (1.10), 7th (1.00).

In this new Baker DD7, Shift Drum is designed to help the rider find Neutral every time, like with all other Baker Transmissions. Testers tell me that the bike felt like motor work has been done to it and that it shifts like a dream. Baker Drivetrain.

The DD7 Shift System has design cues based on our experience in the drivetrain world.
• Ease of Finding Neutral
• Smooth Shifting
• No Clunks or jerky shifts
• Utilizes ball bearing linear detent in the top cover that was originally designed for the automotive OEM (similar to the Torque Box)
• The DD7 Builder’s kits will come ready to slide in the bike, no case modifications, shimming of the gearset or adjustments required.
• 7th Main Drive Gear, Main Drive Gear Bearing, Main Drive Seal,included in Builder’s kit, to replace 6th main.
• ARP 12pt Bolts for Door, Top Cover and Stock Side Cover
• Re-uses stock shifter pawl Includes new Main drive gear bearing and seal, door gasket, top cover gasket
• BAKER Re-Cal Box and Leads Included
• Utilizes F6F Door Bearing Retainer Plate
• DD7 Door Bearings are 28% Wider Than Stock

The price is probably going to be pretty high, but this may be something to do over the winter months.  I know that with the hydraulic clutch and how it grabs just off the bar when releasing, finding neutral quicker and easier at a stop light or parking lot would be big help.  Yes, I can tap up or down and when I have the forethought and can do it, popping it into neutral before coming to a stop is a lot easier.

  I can't stop typing, just slap me.......

  I'm done now, thank goodness.

Thanks again, really, for all the information.  I just wasn't sure what options might be available.

[SPIDERMAN]

Dan,
       The only direct drive trans on the market is the Baker DD6  The H-D units are .86/1 in 6th

B B

[Dan_Lockwood]

You can't change tranny side gearing on '07/'08's like you could on earlier models. Ther's a non-comp engine sprocket w/new chain, from Evo Industries, as previously stated. But you can't play with both for different gearing like before. The '07/'08s have been heavily changed and patented by HD to screw up the aftermarket. Give it time though. I'm sure they'll come up with things down the road.

Hoist!

When I went to Evo's website, they offere a clutch basket and ring gear kit that goes up to a 49 tooth clutch sprocket.  This is half way between the stock and their 30 tooth front and it would still retain the front compensator sprocket assembly.  This may be a good option, or like I said above, the Baker DD7.

Or you can always build the motor with enough torque that the gearing don't matter

B B

It's not the lack of torque I need, I've got tons of that.  What I think I need is just a lower gear to run slower speed at the same rpms without slipping the clutch to do it.  Torque isn't a factor at parking lot speeds or pulling up a steep ramp at parking lot speed, you just can't go that fast in some instances.

Thanks again for the information and insight.

[Dan_Lockwood]

Dan,
       The only direct drive trans on the market is the Baker DD6  The H-D units are .86/1 in 6th

B B

Page Transmission 7-1 of the 2008 Touring Service manual, lists in Table 7-2, Gear Specfications, the following.

Gear Specification
First (low) - 3.34
Second - 2.31
Third - 1.72
Fourth - 1.39
Fifth - 1.18
Sixth - 1.00

Overall Gear Ratio
First (low) - 9.312
Second - 6.421
Third - 4.774
Fourth - 3.926
Fifth - 3.279
Sixth (high) - 2.790
Overall gear ratios indicate number of engine revolutions required to drive rear wheel one revolution.

I know I've heard that the Cruise Drive is an overdrive trans, but I don't see that from the manual.

I forgot this, if you look in the Baker poop sheet information, they list the same ratios as the HD manual and they don't indicate that they are more efficient than HD because they are direct drive.

This is from the Baker website previously quoted above.

The Harley-Davidson factory 6-speed ratios are: 1st (3.34), 2nd (2.30), 3rd (1.71), 4th (1.41), 5th (1.18), 6th (1.00). The Baker DD7 transmission will have the following ratios : 1st (3.76), 2nd (2.75), 3rd (2.06), 4th (1.55), 5th (1.27), 6th (1.10), 7th (1.00).

I'm sooo confused, I'm not sure which way is up.... I do know that we're going riding and I'm going to enjoy the hell out of my SERK regardless of what the hell 1st gear is.

 

[SPIDERMAN]

I must be thinking of the original H-D 6, the Screamin Eagle model like Twolanerider and Bubba_T have.

Hey Don, jump in here and tell us what you know.

Mr Lockwood has posted so much info my head is spinning.

I started out thinking I knew what was what, now - - - - - - - - - - -who am I ?


B B

[Dan_Lockwood]

I must be thinking of the original H-D 6, the Screamin Eagle model like Twolanerider and Bubba_T have.

Hey Don, jump in here and tell us what you know.

Mr Lockwood has posted so much info my head is spinning.

I started out thinking I knew what was what, now - - - - - - - - - - -who am I ?


B B

Like I just said, my wife and I are hitting the road....

I've been killing time here while she's been doing the vacuuming with her new central vacuum system.  When I sold the Nomad and 540 bbc motor, all she wanted was central vacuum in the house, which I so graciously bought for her.  What I got was a new 73" HDTV, new Yamaha 3800 receiver, new Panasonic Blu-Ray player, new Milwaukee Iron boardtrack chassis, a new Ultima 113", Ultima 6 spd and 2" belt drive.  I also paid off the SERK and some other debt, so I can wait a bit for her to have fun cleaning....

Later dudes and dudettes...

We're outta here------->

P.S. Of course, I'll be baaaaack... A very poor Arnold impersonation.