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[hdnut]

Anyone with Zipper's dyno sheet's? [smiley=bigok.gif]

[HUBBARD]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, hdnut,
 I have a Zipper's Motor in my "Led Sled."  Refer to the "Electra Glide Discussion" thread, under the "Dyno Numbers?", topic.  Later--HUBBARD    

[hdnut]

Thanks Hub.

[HUBBARD]

You're quite welcome, my Good Man!  Now, get that Money out, and BUY SOME HORSEPOWER!  It was made to spend!  You can't take it with you!  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD

[pappy2]

I had a dyno run done on my set up last week.  I have put the Zippers throttle body, manifold, AC and ECM on with D&D fat cats.  Results look pretty bad to me and I have tried all week to get them to focus on it without much success.  The latest is they are going to see if they can get me an adjusted base map and the name of a Zippers qualified tuner who has their actual ECM software with the complete tuning maps for AF mix across the rpm ranges.  Their end user software is only tunable for AF mix with Lambda +- 10% with a throttle position map (no RPM)  and spark advance +- 5% with an RPM range.   They claim the map for an 04 103 SE is the same as an 05 103 SE but I thought I saw some differences in the heads mentioned here before and think this may be a source of the problem.  They will not send me the base map tuning software as they only allow their qualified tuners to have access to it.  Obviously this is frustrating the heck out of me.  The bike runs good and is very drivable but does seem to flatten out some around 3500 and other than the stock motor I have nothing to compare to.  Here is the dyno.

[shovelhead71]

Pappy - was anything done to the internals of the engine on your bike as of yet - BEFORE - these modifications ? if it was please list all mods done.
If this is all - you fed it more air @throttle body - a/c kit - and told it to exhaust with the fat cats what internals are burning all of this "extra" air & fuel - or is it attempting to do it with stock pistons/heads/cam ?

[pappy2]

No other changes made as of yet.  The internals of the motor are stock 05 SE 103.  The stock motor actually seemed somewhat choked off by the existing throttle body/AC.  Until I get it tuned correctly, I will not be able to tell if I am putting to much mixture in the existing motor.  The AF curve as I understand it is really just a reflection of the EFI settings that drive the amount of fuel in the injectors and should be mappable with the technology in the Zippers ECM if I can get the software or a map from them to do so.   I do think that if I choose to upgrade the internals, the increased flow will only serve to increase the effectiveness of the upgrades.  Thanks for the thoughts and I will keep you all updated of any progress that I make.  I posted elsewhere that I pulled the rear plug and it verifies a rich run rate and the timing curve can be pulled back a bit.  JP

[DCFIREMANN]

Pappy I just got your PM. I do suspect the weather has a lot to do with the numbers. The fact that the air is so much thinner down there then up here the + or- 10% may not be enough. If they can't find a tuner let me know. I do know someone I have been talking to and they know of each other. So maybe we can make this happen. I am going to make a call next week to Bill @ Zippers I would like to see the numbers on mine. I know what they were before and I KNOW IT RUNS A LOT BETTER NOW!!!!!!! For a basic stock 103 it runs like a RAPED APE! I tried to get them to tune it with the thunder header as they had no base map at the time but they quickly changed a bike around and did some dyno time and got the map for it. I have since had some changes done to my Thunder Max and it runs real good throughout the whole rpm range.

When I get back from Chatanooga I am pulling the motor off of the bike to have the timken conversion done and from there do the rest of the internals to the motor. I have a very good package setup to go into the motor. I am looking for the most reliable and streetable numbers. Please keep us informed

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Unbalanced]

Pappy2,

I have an 04 Pumpkin and an 05 Cherry and I can tell you between the 2 they are totally different in the way they like to be mapped.   The 04 likes to be mapped rich at 12.5 to 13 and the 05 Cherry likes to run at 14 to 14.2 to 1 A/F.   Both are mapped with a Race Tuner.

After looking at your mapping you might try from 3500 to 5500 pulling some fuel away as you will want to leave the bike a bit richer on the top end 5500 + rpm.  I personally would look at pulling a little bit from 3000 to 3500 to try and get a flat line for a fuel curve but that is just me being overly anal on it.   You may also depending on how its running decide to leave the bike as is from 0 to 4000 and try from 4000 to 5500 pulling fuel away.  

Since I have not played with the ECM / Tuner from zippers I am not sure there is a setting like the race tuner to pull 1 unit to 5 units to 10 units from each cell.   You may want to double check with Zippers on that from their technical staff.

I would also ask Zippers, if they have  any upgrades to your ECM that may give you a bit more tunability ie +/- 1, 2, 5 units instead of just 10 units.

I would still recommend after doing this and playing with it that you check with a guy with a dyno to make sure that you are not running the bike to lean.

[pappy2]

The end user software for the Zippers ECM only has AF adj by throttle position which does not seem to be the same as by RPM to me but maybe the curves could be worked out?   I am asking for a complete retune to an 05 motor as I get the impression the 04/05 change is the problem. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Can anyone confirm exactly what changed inside the 04/05 motor that might explain my situation?

[Twolanerider]

The end user software for the Zippers ECM only has AF adj by throttle position which does not seem to be the same as by RPM to me but maybe the curves could be worked out?   I am asking for a complete retune to an 05 motor as I get the impression the 04/05 change is the problem. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Can anyone confirm exactly what changed inside the 04/05 motor that might explain my situation?

This is purely anecdotal.  I've never sat down and compared part numbers from one year's parts breakdown to the next (though you could at the parts counter any time you wished to).  But a good wrench at the dealership in Belton, MO (Gail's Harley Davidson) has told me previously that the engines were the same for 04 and 05.

[Unbalanced]

TwoLane,

My understanding was that there is a significant change in the ECM exactly what I can not tell you, but I can say if they were the same my 2 bikes would be much closer in dyno maps.   My buddy also has a pumpkin and his bike dyno'd very close to my pumpkin and yet the 05 wasn't even in the ballpark.    The reason I say this is that when we dyno'd them they (my 2 bikes) were identical in accessories  Rhinehart true duals 2 1/4 baffles, SE Air Kit with K&N filters and Race Tuner.

Now I know no 2 motors are identical and have + / - variances and variables, but mine were so far apart that there has to be some reason for their vast differences.

I had also been told there was a change in valve train, but after looking through the parts books for both 04 / 05 and then 03  they are identical all the way back.  by part number but I did not check to see if there were superceeded part numbers.

[Twolanerider]

TwoLane,

My understanding was that there is a significant change in the ECM exactly what I can not tell you, but I can say if they were the same my 2 bikes would be much closer in dyno maps.   My buddy also has a pumpkin and his bike dyno'd very close to my pumpkin and yet the 05 wasn't even in the ballpark.    The reason I say this is that when we dyno'd them they (my 2 bikes) were identical in accessories  Rhinehart true duals 2 1/4 baffles, SE Air Kit with K&N filters and Race Tuner.

It's all interesting.  One of these days going to have to sit down with parts manuals to cover both and do a line item comparison from the ECM to the oil drain plug see for sure.

[Fatboy]

Pappy2,

Also check with your Dyno guy to see what the weight is of the dyno drum your turning. I was initially disappointed when I made a few changes and only hit 90hp and 100tq but the guy with the dyno said I should be very happy with those number's since he uses an 1180 pound drum. He claims most guys are using an 875 pound drum and which will give you much higher number's (about 20% higher).  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
I'm going to run it on Dr Dyno's machine in Sturgis to validate the difference since Dr Dyno uses an 875 pound drum. But one thing I can tell you is my bike is running great now that I've got it breathing freely. No more feeling bottled up or sluggish, you wack it now and you best be holding on because its showtime........ [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

See ya.

[pappy2]

Latest info from Dan at Zippers is he thinks the dyno run was done with the engine cooler than normal operating temperature which caused my results.  He has sent me another map with a richer fuel map than the original as he claims that the valves on an 05 head actually tend to lean out the mixture a little from the 04 valves.   I will go ahead and get the dyno done on the original map as well as the newest map with the monitor software in place to determine that the engine is at full operatiing temperature when the dyno pulls are done.  This will be interesting at least and if the results are still off base, we can go from there.    I did load the richer map and can not really tell much diff so far but it does seem to run better than the lean map and does pull fairly good and steady all the way to the red line with no weird popping or running so far.    Unfortunately, I think I have dyno madness and no real reference point as both my other bikes are far stronger than this will ever be.  In any case the bike is a blast to ride and I need to get this resolved and get on with enjoying my ownership and the harley mystique.   [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] JP