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[Dan_Lockwood]

I talked to couple of the HD tech guys while looking over the new '09 bikes in Rapid City a week ago.

I asked them about the ticking noise I have and I said that a lot of guys I "talk" to have the same noises.  He said that it appears to be in the harmonics of the valve train.  He said that's why the ones that have it all seem to be about the same rpms, give or take a few hundred one way or the other.  He said that if the cams or valve springs are changed it may go away or at least change to a different rpm range.

I've read in car mags for many years now about the Beehive single valve springs as being better than the old style dual spring setup.  HD had the Beehive springs on the display with some SE parts.  Have any of you guys used the Beehive springs on any of the cam changes?

I can understand what he's saying about the rpm range and the harmonics, but you would think that if they knew this they could change something to move it up the rpm range out of the normal cruising rpm range.  At least then it would be quieter for us during most of our riding, but now it's right in the range I do most of my running at.

I also talked to them about the fact that I had my letter for the fuel filter thing and they asked what mileage I had on my SERK.  I said less than 4,000 and they said that I should not see the problem and ride all I wanted at the rally and then get it fixed.  I didn't have any option but to ride it anyway, so I rode without issues.  He said that it's the vibration that causes the failure on the retainers of the filter housing, he showed me one from a RG.

I asked him about the heads on the SERK's and he said only the SEUC would be getting heads, as you guys have already indicated.  He said that it was still a case by case story on SERK's, but because of the concentration of heat that the SEUC's have, they will be getting the new style heads.  All the rest will be getting the center bolts, ACR's and all the new gaskets.

I am curious about the Beehive valve springs though.  Have they been used by anyone here?

Thanks.

[DCFIREMANN]

TICKING NOISE?? That is not valve train harmonics!!!!! It might be a weak lifter, or the rocker arm hitting the rocker box. Where is the noise? High or low in the engine??

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Dan_Lockwood]

TICKING NOISE?? That is not valve train harmonics!!!!! It might be a weak lifter, or the rocker arm hitting the rocker box. Where is the noise? High or low in the engine??

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Dawg, thanks for the reply.

I've posted about this ticking, sewing machine noise once before with lots of descriptions, but the bottom line is that it comes in about 2,500 rpms and leaves about 3,100/3,200 rpms.  This is NOT loud like a lifter or loose rockers, it's just a slight rattle/ticking noise.  Others have posted the same noise in their bikes, but all seem to be just a bit different in rpms.

If it were something mechanical like the spring keeper hitting the lower rocker box, or weak lifter, I would think it would make the noise over a wider range of rpms.  The noise is coming from the upper end of the bike both front and rear as far as I can tell.

I've been a mechanic on two cycles, air and water cooled, a car/truck mechanic and eventually a service manager at a Chevy/Pontiac dealership for 15 years.  I've seen lots of weird things.  The guy seemed to know what I was talking about when I mentioned it to him.  When the guy mentioned harmonics and if I changed the cams it would probably change the noise characteristics or the rpms range.  So in a somewhat way out there notion, I can kind of agree with his "harmonics" explanation.

If my heads get worked on for warranty work, I may have them change out the springs to the new beehive spring and see what that does to the noise.

Click here http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=21583.0 for the original thread I started on the ticking noise.

Again, this was present the day I rode the bike home.  Nothing has changed and I now have about 4,500 miles on the bike.  I've changed the oil, but had the dealership do it the first time and they kept the Syn3 oil in it.  I've heard others here say that they tried Dino oil to get rid of this, but without much success.

Believe me, I'd really like to find a resolution to this issue.  It's doesn't concern me mechanically, it's just a nuisance that I'd like to get rid of.  I'd really like to ride with a quiet motor.  Like I said, most of my riding is in this rpm range so I always hear it.

Thanks again for the reply.

    

[Gecko]

I've had the same noise at 2800-3000 rpm since new, worse as the revs are dropping than on the way up.  I got mine in December of 07 and had to tell the dealer about the clearance problem.  They (at least they said they did) ground out the box, but the noise remains as bad or worse than before.  Now - get ready for a big surprise here - they say the noise is "normal".  Kind of sounds like an iron Sportster or a Shovelhead - part of that link to the past that HD likes to promote. 

[mr_magoo]

I've been told the noise is normal as well.  but going to try a couple of things while the heads are replaced.

[grc]

This "lifter" noise isn't something that is new for the 110 engine.  My 103 has had the same thing since new, and plenty of folks with stock 88's / 96's have reported the same noise.  Assuming you have the "normal" noise, as opposed to the noise caused by the valve spring retainers contacting the rocker box, I don't know that anyone has ever come up with a definite cause or fix.  One thing from my own experience is that I find the noise to be much more obvious on the fairing bikes than the naked ones.  I even notice a slight difference on mine when I close the lower vents and install the fairing air deflectors.

Until someone decides to set up an engine in a dyno room (and pipe all the exhaust noise outside) to track down the noise, I think we are stuck with either living with it or doing "trial and error" fixes promoted by various aftermarket folks.  Some folks claim to have "fixed" it with a higher pressure oil pump or bypass spring.  Personally, I think the only fix proven to be 100% effective is a really loud exhaust system.  Why do you think Harley folks have always changed pipes as soon as they bought a bike?  Loud pipes don't necessarily save lives, but they do cover up all that thrashing from the engine and trans.

Jerry

[harleyguynv]

My bike makes the same sound in the same RPM range. (2500-3300) It does not make the noise (sounds like the rods knocking on an automobile engine) untill I ride it a few miles. The hotter the engine gets the better you can hear it. The dealer called Harley on this issue and they said it is the pistons. They said the pisons are very short. They really don't have skirts and it is the pistons making the noise. I have an 07 SEUC which is in for the heads as we speak. The dealer is trying to get Harley to replace the cylinders, pistons and rings. I had the bike in for gaskets about 1000 miles ago and it is leaking again. The factory does not believe that it is leaking again so they had the dealer put dye into the oil to see where it is leaking. I guess they have some problems with oil leaking down a clyinder stud inside the cylinder so that is why some leak at the base. Anyway, took the bike out over the weekend and rode 300 mile and it does not look like it leaked at the base where it was leaking. It did use 1/2 quart of oil though. I took it back to them yesterday to get the work done. I will be talking to them today to see what they are going to do. It never used this much oil either.

[Hoist!]

These TC motors make a racket. All kinds of weird noises. That'll never change. It's just a noisey design. There are no HD parts (basically) in my motor and it makes noises too. You'll know when it's a BAD noise and something's wrong, vs the standard "it's normal, they all do it" noise!!! Make sure everything is correct and clearanced, and like Jerry said, put a loud exhaust on. It all goes away, including 5th gear whine!!!

Hoist!

[miker]

Modern TC: cams smacks lifters, lifter smacks pushrod, pushrod smacks rocker, rocker smacks valve.
1935:         cams smacks lifters, lifters smacks valves. 

[grc]

Modern TC: cams smacks lifters, lifter smacks pushrod, pushrod smacks rocker, rocker smacks valve.
1935:         cams smacks lifters, lifters smacks valves. 

  

That's what I call progress.  Seventy years later, it takes 4 extra parts (plus pushrod covers) to make the same noise. 

Jerry

[miker]

2 less cams on the t/c and not even gear driven?

The  other thing in 35....control cables and wiring through the bars...granted single throttle cable, ac oupla wires and single timing advance.

[RK2000]

There shouldn't be any smacking going on in a modern day engine. I am wondering if the noise we are hearing is due to the bleed in the lifter not being sized for the synthetic oil we now have to run due to the hot engines? Hydraulic lifters were installed in engines to reduce valve train noise and improve torque. Has any one looked at the amount of travel the lifters have in their plungers? If the travel is less than .010" the noise may be to expansion of the rocker boxes reducing the preload on the lifters. Mine is quite as a Honda when it is cold but sounds like it has roller rockers when hot and is worse above 2400 rpms. I don't understand how the spring retainer could hit the rocker boxes only at certain rpms. Does any one have a SB on this complaint? My dealer doesn't seam to know anything about clearance of the rocker boxes being a problem.
Yea I got my letter but going to wait till the dealer gets a few repairs under their belts. No leaks yet at 10k miles so I think I will ride awhile longer.

[Gecko]

There is a thread with photos regarding new rocker boxes and gaskets introduced mid-cycle, so MOCO knows about it but won't do anything about the existing ones except Dremel more room.  And no, nobody has come up with any plausible reason why it should hit at only certain rpms.  I agree, everybody else can engineer and manufacture silent pushrod valve trains.  But then they can do comparatively simple things like not leak.

[harleyguynv]

Just an update. My bike is in for the head upgrade. The dealer has been trying to get Harley to replace the pistons and cylinders due to the noise between 2500-3300 rpms. Harley had told them earlier that it was caused by the pistons being short. Well they did a leakdown test on it and found it exceeded the specs so Harley agreed to install new rings. They also said once the cylinders are removed if the bases are not within a certain spec they will replace them. But under no circumstance will they replace the pistons. They say they have concluded that the noise is considered normal. The dealer told them that the customer would not be satisfied and they said too bad. I have a friend with an 07 serk and his bike does not make the same noise. The dealer did tell me if the pistons or cylinders have any scarring they will replace both and fight with Harley later. Well there you have it...

[miker]

The surprise is that sounds like a decent dealer!