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[FNGw/08SERK]

After reading this thread it appears as if it was a thoughtless error by a rookie who thought none the better. JMHO

[Keats]

Normally if they came to your door (non 911 call) if you did not invite them in or did not stop them from walking in (invitation can be inferred) they cannot enter unless probable cause exists or have a warrant.

In the other hand if you came to the door with the kids outside and did not invite them in and they ask to come in and look around and you refused, they can still come in (refusal could be taken as hiding something and probable cause may enter the frey) (might not hold up in court upon examination) and you could be arrested if you resisted.
It is what they call a balance, there are repercussions on either side (intrusion or safety) and error is on the side of a potential victim.
I hear your frustration but they were doing there job and would be derelict if they did not investigate.
remember the action was initiated from your side mistake or not. Your slight inconvenience is worth spending verses the chance of protecting a victim.

I am not in law enforcement and the S.O.P. may change from state to state and even by municipality.
I think the one thing you learn in law enforcement (for which I have many friends) is that nothing is how it appears and the faster you learn that the safer you will be.

Some people think that a Cop entering a unsecured environment, that has his hand on his firearm is overly aggressive and my opinion is that he taken appropriate action to protect themselves and others.

I attribute these situations for causing a paranoia type of environment (or a close smaller circle of friends)which makes some, very distrusting of people on a grander scale.
Cops hang with cops I think because of this.
How many people hang with the people they work with?
How many cops do you know that hang with other cops?

No judgement here just observations and most I would think as normal under the circumstances.

off my soap box and will shut up.......

[Fired00d]

.......
Cops hang with cops I think because of this.
How many people hang with the people they work with?
How many cops do you know that hang with other cops?

No judgement here just observations and most I would think as normal under the circumstances.

off my soap box and will shut up.......

I hang and ride w/several LEO's.... you'll think Hoist rides WFO you should ride w/these guys. Only difference when they/we get stopped most of the time.... oh well we leave smiling. Oh and these guys know how to party.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Keats]

I hang and ride w/several LEO's.... you'll think Hoist rides WFO you should ride w/these guys. Only difference when they/we get stopped most of the time.... oh well we leave smiling. Oh and these guys know how to party.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

They not only can party, seldom is there a price paid that I cannot afford.
 Have never got a ticket.........never without a place to park.......never felt danger Anywhere...........
not so good for the married life though...........that bunch is always on the brink of self destruction
does not apply to everyone but there is a pattern..........

[murphy]

A 911 call is exigent, the casual nature of the officer is a problem because these calls happen so frequently... kind of like alarm calls, most are false and the cop becomes complacent.

Usually someone with more experience knows better and is more alert because they have seen what has or can happen in these scenarios before.

If I get a 911 call I am going in and until I know that everyone is OK, I'm not leaving.

Of course I am going explain the reason for the intrusion, and in ten years I have never had anyone complain.

The exigent circumstances are usually is in relation to powers of arrest, not 911 calls... there can be alot of confusion about the issue.

I will put it in perspective for you, if a fireman gets a remote fire alarm call or medical panic alarm from an elderly, they show up at the door and no one answers.... would you expect them to go in?

Absolutely, until they can prove otherwise you have to ensure the safety of the people and property at that location.

It is "reasonable" to expect someone with this type of authority would make this type of decision.

For us a 911 call comes over as an "Unknown Trouble", you can argue all day about your rights, and I completely understand, but I will always investigate and see that there is no one hiding in a closet or under a bed fearing for their own safety because someone picked up the phone and said "there's no problem here".

I have been on the discovery/bad side of an incident like this more than once in the past, and so have many others where I work... this is why there is case law supporting entry.

Of course approach and communication are vital when doing this, maybe if the new guy took some time and articulated why he did what he did it may of been a little easier for you.

I'm sorry that it was a bad experience. Anytime a persons liberty is taken away it is traumatic.

[Fired00d]

A 911 call is exigent, the casual nature of the officer is a problem because these calls happen so frequently... kind of like alarm calls, most are false and the cop becomes complacent.

Usually someone with more experience knows better and is more alert because they have seen what has or can happen in these scenarios before.

If I get a 911 call I am going in and until I know that everyone is OK, I'm not leaving.

Of course I am going explain the reason for the intrusion, and in ten years I have never had anyone complain.

The exigent circumstances are usually is in relation to powers of arrest, not 911 calls... there can be alot of confusion about the issue.

I will put it in perspective for you, if a fireman gets a remote fire alarm call or medical panic alarm from an elderly, they show up at the door and no one answers.... would you expect them to go in?

Absolutely, until they can prove otherwise you have to ensure the safety of the people and property at that location.

It is "reasonable" to expect someone with this type of authority would make this type of decision.

For us a 911 call comes over as an "Unknown Trouble", you can argue all day about your rights, and I completely understand, but I will always investigate and see that there is no one hiding in a closet or under a bed fearing for their own safety because someone picked up the phone and said "there's no problem here".

I have been on the discovery/bad side of an incident like this more than once in the past, and so have many others where I work... this is why there is case law supporting entry.

Of course approach and communication are vital when doing this, maybe if the new guy took some time and articulated why he did what he did it may of been a little easier for you.

I'm sorry that it was a bad experience. Anytime a persons liberty is taken away it is traumatic.

Since you mention this as an example this is our policy...

If we answer a fire alarm and can't gain entry we walk around the building checking the perimeter, looking in available windows to see any sign of smoke or fire. If there aren't any signs of the above then we wait (for a resonable amount of time) until a key holder arrives. If a key holder or responsible party doesn't arrive to let us in we contact the alarm company back advise them what we found and we leave, we do not force entry. If we go to a building/house that is occupied we ask for a responisble party's (adult) permission to enter. It might be (unfortunately for LEO's) that people have more trust/like FF's. Also most alarms (fire/EMS) that go to 911 centers come from an alarm company that is monitoring the building/home and they have a "responsible party" (key holder) to contact when this happens to respond to let us in. Especially in the case of the EMS alarms they go off all the time because the person wearing them doesn't turn the base unit off when they leave, and after so much time w/o it sending a signal back to the base unit it will go into alarm. I can't count the number of times we've answered calls such as this only to find out this has happened.

I'm not arguing the point of going in, and assuring everyone is ok. I just don't think it was "lawful" or appropiate to not wait until an adult either authorized or denied entry for that officer to enter. I'm also not getting the vibe that Hunter (if the officer would have waited and asked him for entry) would have denied entry if asked.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[hunter]

you're right d00d.  I would have been more than happy to let him in and give him all the information he needed and thank him for his concern.  A little common since goes a long way.

[murphy]

The unfortunate thing about common sense is that it's not all that common!!!

Courtesy goes along way as well, most new guys don't know that and we constantly have to drill it into them.

Something positive will come out of your negative experience, I will be sharing it to others as a teaching point.

Glad you took the time to share it!


Murphy

[hunter]

I know my initial reaction was an over-reaction.  I guess my expectation is that LOE should be as close to perfect as possible if I'm to trust them with my safety or my life. 

Let me share a little story with you guys:

Last year I went to Hawaii to visit my brothers and do some hunting (don't be surprised, they have Axis deer, wild Spanish goat and Mouflon sheep).  I have traveled extensively in my previous job and for hunting.  I can say for fact that I have flown at least 1500 times with firearms in last 20 years and I used to have FFL (Federal Firearm License). I know firearm laws regarding carry and transportation and always have my ammunition separate from guns and guns unloaded in a lockable case.

On my trip to Hawaii, I had an aluminum case that had a bow and a rifle with 4 latches that locks with a pad lock and a duffle bag with other stuff and 2 boxes of ammo in a plastic carrying case in the bag.  I got my pass and tags and declaration form for the luggage and followed to security.  They toke my bags and I told them about the gun.  The security guy called his supervisor for gun since he didn't know what to do with it.  I had to stand behind the guard rail.  The supervisor came, I explained about the gun and ammo.  First I had to explain to him how to check a bolt action rifle to see if it's unloaded ( I always take the bolt out in the case).  Then he tells me " I'm not comfortable with ammo in a box different than factory box and I'd rather out them in the aluminum case".   

I asked him are you sure? he said yes.  Now remember the factory boxes are cardboard and my boxes are hard plastic.  So he took my ammo and put them in the same box as the gun.  I explained to him in details how to lock the box, he said he did it (when I got to Hawaii, He had put the lock on the hasp only so it was actually UN-LOCKED).  Now according to federal law (which applies to air travel) having ammo in with the gun is one violation and having gun case un-locked another, each with prison sentence and up to $25,000 fine.  Even the declaration form says that there are no ammo with the gun.

I had to let him do it because he was in charge of security and trained and I'm not allowed to argue with him or he will call Homeland Security agents.  Do you know how that makes me feel?  I have to trust him with my safety and life and he has no clue what to do and doesn't understand plain English instruction to put a pad lock on a case.
Since 9-11, we have put up a show to make people feel safe at least traveling by air.  All they are concern about is taking your nail clipper and bottled water.

They allow you to carry 2 oz. of liquid, yet if you have a bottle of water and drink half of it in frint of them, they still won't let it go through security.  Do you know how much damage a person can do to an aircraft with 2 oz. of N itro?

Now you can see my frustration since 9-11. 

One or two of the hijackers at 9-11 had fake NJ driver license.  Now in NJ when you want to renew your license they ask for 6 points ID and your old incense is good for only 1 point even though you had to show 6 points ID last time to renew it.  Where is the logic?  They don't even accept their own issued document.

Less than 20% of their security regulations is really effective.  The other 80% just a dog and pony show and waist of tax money.  Don't fool yourself, If we haven't been hurt again is not because we stopped them.  It's because they haven't tried again.  If hundreds of Mexicans can come over illegally every day, a terrorist can get in also with his backpack packed.

We owe it to those who died in 9-11 to revenge their unjust death and to protect their families from those maniacs who has no respect for life, theirs or others.

Sorry for rambling.  I'll get off the 

[Ironhorse]

How about this. When I was a Federal Agent I used to fly armed all over the country and parts of the world. Most of the time the crews are cool, but sometimes you get one who isn't, or I should say isn't familiar with dealing with armed passengers. I had one captain ask if he could see my pistol and I told him "sure, if you let me sit in the cockpit and push buttons". He laughed. I had one ask me to "take the bullets out of it". I told him "sure, I'll do that if you drain all the fuel out of the tank". He asked what I meant, and I said "a weapon without ammunition is like an airplane without fuel". He nodded and I went back to my seat.

[hunter]

I once went from Dallas to Montana on a hunt.  At Dallas airport when I tried to check my bow (a compound bow, not a crossbow), she asked me to sign a form for firearms that says the firearms is unloaded.  I tried to explain to her what  a firearm is and she didn't wanna here it.  She said an arrow can kill people.  I asked her "what if I had a baseball bat?  Did I still have to sign the form since I could kill people with it".

I had several occasions when they asked me to sign the declaration from that it's unloaded, then asked me to show them that it is.

The best one is when they ask me if the ammo can go off by itself.

I like those agency issued MP5 (10 mm).

[porthole]

Since you mention this as an example this is our policy...

This is completely different then a 9-11 hang up though.

As to the dispatchers info to the officer, it is not up to the dispatcher to give any preconceived notions on their part as to the the nature of the 9-11 hang up. It is a 9-11 hang up that needs to be investigated.

As to the senior officer in the car waiting, that sounds either lazy or complacent as previously mentioned.

Bad guys and unknowns in building fires can really do us in, but complacency is one of our biggest enemies in either job, it hurts us every day.

Hunter - you are in NJ? My son and nephew are both LEO's I'll ask them their department policies.

You might have had a rookie with too little experience or one a bit over zealous, but if he was polite ............... then..........

If the situation was slightly different, e.g. your wife in your place, would you still be comfortable with the way it was handled?

[MikeD]

The officer responded to not one, but two calls from your residence, erronious or not, that is still unusual unless there is an emergency or request for service.  Two back to back calls, even though you had verbal contact with the operator would necessitate a personal visit by at least one officer within my jurisdiction.  More than likely, the supervisor would have already responded due the back to back calls.  There have been several times when an a call came in, hang up, followed by another call with someone saying everything is ok, and there was an domestic distrubance of some sort at the residence.  The officer did have the right to ensure safety at the residence, if something was spotted out of the scope of the call, i.e. drugs, bodies, etc, then they would have to back up, remove all occupants from the residence, and obtain a search warrant.  If this was my officer (when I was a Sgt.) I would have backed him up fully and advise to further your complaint higher if you were unsatisfied.

JMO.

[hunter]

The officer responded to not one, but two calls from your residence, erronious or not, that is still unusual unless there is an emergency or request for service.  Two back to back calls, even though you had verbal contact with the operator would necessitate a personal visit by at least one officer within my jurisdiction.  More than likely, the supervisor would have already responded due the back to back calls.  There have been several times when an a call came in, hang up, followed by another call with someone saying everything is ok, and there was an domestic distrubance of some sort at the residence.  The officer did have the right to ensure safety at the residence, if something was spotted out of the scope of the call, i.e. drugs, bodies, etc, then they would have to back up, remove all occupants from the residence, and obtain a search warrant.  If this was my officer (when I was a Sgt.) I would have backed him up fully and advise to further your complaint higher if you were unsatisfied.

JMO.

It was only one call.  As I was dialing 917 (on an old phone that have to push buttons hard), the digit 1 dialed twice.  I was dialing 1-917 and it dialed 1-911.
The officer asked the babysitter to get the person in charge yet he followed her into the house through the garage and laundry room into family room.
Why would he wanted to send her with my child into the house if he thought there is danger or a situation needing investigation?

Hunter - you are in NJ? My son and nephew are both LEO's I'll ask them their department policies.

?

Yes Duane, I'm in NJ.  And thanks for getting that info for me.

[MikeD]

Hunter, I couldn't give you a accurate answer, since I wasn't there.  However, past cases in dealing with domestic violence has shown that some victims, whether it be a child, woman or man, may not feel comfortable telling there side of the story with another child, sibling, or other family member present. 

We could go on and on, but I would still stand by my officer on that call.  I would explain to you and apolojize to you if you feel like your rights have been violated and tell you the proper course for filing a complaint.  For my old department, it was as simple as coming to the PD and speaking with their internal affairs officer.  Don't go to the Chief, unless you know him or her.  You wont get past the  secretary!  Just ask for the IA officer or the uniform commander. 

It is an honest mistake and happens often.  But officers have to treat all 911 as an emergency call.  More than half that I have answered were kids playing on the phone, but they have to respond and investigate.

Good Luck Hunter!

Mike