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Author Topic: slaying the dragon 2008  (Read 12984 times)

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SPIDERMAN

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2008, 04:49:38 PM »

Naitram
             Would you remove the restriction on picking on newbies just this once please ?

B B
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naitram

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2008, 04:59:14 PM »

B B

there is some constructive criticism in his post,

in responding to that, i dont believe i have posted that i am a perfect rider. i would agree that i didnt have the perfect line through that curve. i did however have a clear field of view through an upcoming series of curves, so in this case no harm no foul.

as for never scraping if you do it right.... well that one i would challenge. pokerpig has a bike that sits at least one inch higher up then mine which does directly translate to lean angle.

i have no problem with the constructive feedback. gives me some things to think about for next time
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Talon

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2008, 04:59:47 PM »

I hate to be the naysayer here, but frankly I see this as an example of how NOT to ride the twisties. Harley riders like to lie back and ride like they are on a sofa, which is fine on the highway, but you have to adjust your riding methods when you get in the passes and canyons.

First, if you are scraping the floorboards you are riding too fast. Period. That shower of sparks demonstrates that you are riding above your skill level. If the curve tightens, or an obstacle "jumps" in front of you, you have no margin for error.

Second, the reason he is straddling the double yellow is that he started his turn from the wrong position. Note how in frame one he is in the middle of the lane, so his turn through the curve has to be sharper and his sight lines are decreased– again leaving no margin for error. He should have exited the prior turn near the white line, so that he begins this turn on the outside.

If you look at the third and fourth frames, you notice that the rider is leaning the bike in one direction, and his body is leaning in the opposite direction. A lot of riders think that what they want to do is lean the bike more in a fast curve, so they shift their weight in the opposite direction to get the bike to lean over. That’s why he is scraping the pegs. Remember that its not the leaning that turns the bike, its shifting the center of gravity to one side of the wheels and countersteering. Leaning the bike over does shift the center of gravity, but remember that a big part of the weight on the bike is the rider. Therefore, the more you lean your body into a turn, the less you have to lean the bike.  If you were looking at a skilled rider from the angle of this photo, he would have shifted his weight and you would see his head positioned far to the right side of the windscreen before he starts to scrape.

Riding in the twisties requires different skills than riding in the streets. You have to get up and forward in the seat so you can 1) shift your body weight and 2) put sufficient pressure on the handlebars to countersteer.  A skilful rider will never have his feet on the highway pegs.
This is different than the way most Harley riders ride. In a leaned-back position, with feet forward, you can’t push much on the inside handlebar to countersteer, so most riders actually pull on the opposite handlebar.  That’s ok on the streets, but since you can’t control your weight distribution in this position it will get you in trouble on the twisties.

Lane position is critical. Remember “outside – inside – outside.” Start at the outside of the lane where you have the best line of vision and the most room to maneuver. Make sure to brake to the proper speed before you start to turn the bike. If you are in S curves, you may have to brake aggressively after you exit one curve and before the next. Pick your line and keep your eyes on the end point. Turn the bike by shifting your weight to the side and forward into the handlebar to countersteer. You want to use throttle control so that you are accelerating while you are increasing the turn and lean angle, and let off the throttle as you straighten up the bike. End the turn back in the outside of the lane.

What do you do if you are in a turn, find you are going too fast, and start scraping? Don’t do what a lot of inexperienced riders do and chop the throttle (or brake). A bike raises up on the frame when you add throttle and lowers when you decrease throttle, so chopping the throttle is a sure way to drop the bike. First, shift your body weight as far as you can into the turn. This will bring the lean angle of the bike up. If you need to turn sharper, increase the countersteer pressure on the handlebar (to turn more) and increase the pressure on the throttle (to keep the bike up). It’s a law of physics that in order for a motorcycle to turn sharper you have to increase the throttle. Then brake aggressively when you come out of the turn so you aren’t going too fast for the next one. Keep in mind that you can only do these things if you are sitting up and forward in your seat. (BTW, there was an interesting article in Motorcyclist a couple months back about how this technique works even in a skid).
I know, its counter-intuitive to increase throttle when you already think you are going too fast, but it’s the fear of doing so that puts most riders in the ditch. There have been a lot of studies that show in most motorcycle crashes the motorcycle was capable of making the turn but the rider wasn’t. It’s a good idea to practice this beforehand, so you can do it instinctively when you get into trouble. At a safe rate of speed, take a turn a little too shallow, and then follow the maneuver above to increase the turn. Experiment with shifting your weight in a turn to learn what happens to your bike’s lean angle.

I don’t mean to be critical. But every year I see a lot of “flatlanders” come here and try to ride the canyons without adjusting their riding style, and a lot of them end up in the creek or worse. I think a little bit of knowledge and a few minutes of practice would keep a lot of them out of trouble.


Hey porker, next time you near Loveland send me a PM. I'll take you on one of my favorite twisty roads running from Loveland to the Pouder Canyon. I was up there this weekend, we had a couple of smaller crotch rockets pull over and let us by. My bike site an inch lower than yours, and I tend to drag the bracket often, but my body is leaned into the turn too, just so much you can do. Some of the turns are marked 10 to 15 MPH, so it gets pretty tight. I lean on the bars as I counter steer, this keeps your body into the turn, look as far ahead in the turn as you can, seems to work pretty good for me. Maybe you can come up and show me you riding style some time?
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LRebel

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2008, 06:32:55 PM »

I hate to be the naysayer here, but frankly I see this as an example of how NOT to ride the twisties. Harley riders like to lie back and ride like they are on a sofa, which is fine on the highway, but you have to adjust your riding methods when you get in the passes and canyons.

First, if you are scraping the floorboards you are riding too fast. Period. That shower of sparks demonstrates that you are riding above your skill level. If the curve tightens, or an obstacle "jumps" in front of you, you have no margin for error.

Second, the reason he is straddling the double yellow is that he started his turn from the wrong position. Note how in frame one he is in the middle of the lane, so his turn through the curve has to be sharper and his sight lines are decreased– again leaving no margin for error. He should have exited the prior turn near the white line, so that he begins this turn on the outside.

If you look at the third and fourth frames, you notice that the rider is leaning the bike in one direction, and his body is leaning in the opposite direction. A lot of riders think that what they want to do is lean the bike more in a fast curve, so they shift their weight in the opposite direction to get the bike to lean over. That’s why he is scraping the pegs. Remember that its not the leaning that turns the bike, its shifting the center of gravity to one side of the wheels and countersteering. Leaning the bike over does shift the center of gravity, but remember that a big part of the weight on the bike is the rider. Therefore, the more you lean your body into a turn, the less you have to lean the bike.  If you were looking at a skilled rider from the angle of this photo, he would have shifted his weight and you would see his head positioned far to the right side of the windscreen before he starts to scrape.

Riding in the twisties requires different skills than riding in the streets. You have to get up and forward in the seat so you can 1) shift your body weight and 2) put sufficient pressure on the handlebars to countersteer.  A skilful rider will never have his feet on the highway pegs.
This is different than the way most Harley riders ride. In a leaned-back position, with feet forward, you can’t push much on the inside handlebar to countersteer, so most riders actually pull on the opposite handlebar.  That’s ok on the streets, but since you can’t control your weight distribution in this position it will get you in trouble on the twisties.

Lane position is critical. Remember “outside – inside – outside.” Start at the outside of the lane where you have the best line of vision and the most room to maneuver. Make sure to brake to the proper speed before you start to turn the bike. If you are in S curves, you may have to brake aggressively after you exit one curve and before the next. Pick your line and keep your eyes on the end point. Turn the bike by shifting your weight to the side and forward into the handlebar to countersteer. You want to use throttle control so that you are accelerating while you are increasing the turn and lean angle, and let off the throttle as you straighten up the bike. End the turn back in the outside of the lane.

What do you do if you are in a turn, find you are going too fast, and start scraping? Don’t do what a lot of inexperienced riders do and chop the throttle (or brake). A bike raises up on the frame when you add throttle and lowers when you decrease throttle, so chopping the throttle is a sure way to drop the bike. First, shift your body weight as far as you can into the turn. This will bring the lean angle of the bike up. If you need to turn sharper, increase the countersteer pressure on the handlebar (to turn more) and increase the pressure on the throttle (to keep the bike up). It’s a law of physics that in order for a motorcycle to turn sharper you have to increase the throttle. Then brake aggressively when you come out of the turn so you aren’t going too fast for the next one. Keep in mind that you can only do these things if you are sitting up and forward in your seat. (BTW, there was an interesting article in Motorcyclist a couple months back about how this technique works even in a skid).
I know, its counter-intuitive to increase throttle when you already think you are going too fast, but it’s the fear of doing so that puts most riders in the ditch. There have been a lot of studies that show in most motorcycle crashes the motorcycle was capable of making the turn but the rider wasn’t. It’s a good idea to practice this beforehand, so you can do it instinctively when you get into trouble. At a safe rate of speed, take a turn a little too shallow, and then follow the maneuver above to increase the turn. Experiment with shifting your weight in a turn to learn what happens to your bike’s lean angle.

I don’t mean to be critical. But every year I see a lot of “flatlanders” come here and try to ride the canyons without adjusting their riding style, and a lot of them end up in the creek or worse. I think a little bit of knowledge and a few minutes of practice would keep a lot of them out of trouble.


What?......  ???


Neal,

Thanks for taking the time to share the pic/movie clip.  Great pics.  Looks like you were out having a great time enjoying the road.
  :2vrolijk_21:
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DavidB

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2008, 06:53:13 PM »

Found this pic of another Hog Slaying The Dragon recently.
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Buffy

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2008, 07:06:32 PM »

HOLY CRAP NAITRAM!  I was impressed even though some people thought otherwise. 

Great positioning of the camera to really catch what it's like to "Slay the Dragon". (I remember it well! - Even with the skinny front tire on my Wide Glide!)  :drink:

Haven't been around lately (fell off my scooter on July 26th)  :oops: but, finally I am well enough to get online and type my little fingers off.  I hope y'all miss the "BUFFY Free Car Wash" every now and then....  Hopefully I'll get back to the next get together after the first of the year. (Doc said no riding until then!)  :soapbox:

Later my friend,
BUFFY  :huepfenjump3:
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naitram

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2008, 07:20:18 PM »

sorry to hear about the fall, we did miss you in MV. hope you can ride again soon
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:cool26: naitram...


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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2008, 07:55:47 PM »

Obi-Won,
I don't care what the other fella said.  Ya looked like ya were having a good time, and that's what it's all about.  Right?   Anyhoo, I do disagree with his assessment that you have to sit forward to counter-steer effectively.  Counter-steering can be accomplished effectively regardless of your position in the seat. (Unless your laying down of course.)  Just some years experience of teaching counter-steering.

   :devil:
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bigdave110

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2008, 08:59:03 PM »

I hate to be the naysayer here, but frankly I see this as an example of how NOT to ride the twisties. Harley riders like to lie back and ride like they are on a sofa, which is fine on the highway, but you have to adjust your riding methods when you get in the passes and canyons.

First, if you are scraping the floorboards you are riding too fast. Period. That shower of sparks demonstrates that you are riding above your skill level. If the curve tightens, or an obstacle "jumps" in front of you, you have no margin for error.

Second, the reason he is straddling the double yellow is that he started his turn from the wrong position. Note how in frame one he is in the middle of the lane, so his turn through the curve has to be sharper and his sight lines are decreased– again leaving no margin for error. He should have exited the prior turn near the white line, so that he begins this turn on the outside.

If you look at the third and fourth frames, you notice that the rider is leaning the bike in one direction, and his body is leaning in the opposite direction. A lot of riders think that what they want to do is lean the bike more in a fast curve, so they shift their weight in the opposite direction to get the bike to lean over. That’s why he is scraping the pegs. Remember that its not the leaning that turns the bike, its shifting the center of gravity to one side of the wheels and countersteering. Leaning the bike over does shift the center of gravity, but remember that a big part of the weight on the bike is the rider. Therefore, the more you lean your body into a turn, the less you have to lean the bike.  If you were looking at a skilled rider from the angle of this photo, he would have shifted his weight and you would see his head positioned far to the right side of the windscreen before he starts to scrape.

Riding in the twisties requires different skills than riding in the streets. You have to get up and forward in the seat so you can 1) shift your body weight and 2) put sufficient pressure on the handlebars to countersteer.  A skilful rider will never have his feet on the highway pegs.
This is different than the way most Harley riders ride. In a leaned-back position, with feet forward, you can’t push much on the inside handlebar to countersteer, so most riders actually pull on the opposite handlebar.  That’s ok on the streets, but since you can’t control your weight distribution in this position it will get you in trouble on the twisties.

Lane position is critical. Remember “outside – inside – outside.” Start at the outside of the lane where you have the best line of vision and the most room to maneuver. Make sure to brake to the proper speed before you start to turn the bike. If you are in S curves, you may have to brake aggressively after you exit one curve and before the next. Pick your line and keep your eyes on the end point. Turn the bike by shifting your weight to the side and forward into the handlebar to countersteer. You want to use throttle control so that you are accelerating while you are increasing the turn and lean angle, and let off the throttle as you straighten up the bike. End the turn back in the outside of the lane.

What do you do if you are in a turn, find you are going too fast, and start scraping? Don’t do what a lot of inexperienced riders do and chop the throttle (or brake). A bike raises up on the frame when you add throttle and lowers when you decrease throttle, so chopping the throttle is a sure way to drop the bike. First, shift your body weight as far as you can into the turn. This will bring the lean angle of the bike up. If you need to turn sharper, increase the countersteer pressure on the handlebar (to turn more) and increase the pressure on the throttle (to keep the bike up). It’s a law of physics that in order for a motorcycle to turn sharper you have to increase the throttle. Then brake aggressively when you come out of the turn so you aren’t going too fast for the next one. Keep in mind that you can only do these things if you are sitting up and forward in your seat. (BTW, there was an interesting article in Motorcyclist a couple months back about how this technique works even in a skid).
I know, its counter-intuitive to increase throttle when you already think you are going too fast, but it’s the fear of doing so that puts most riders in the ditch. There have been a lot of studies that show in most motorcycle crashes the motorcycle was capable of making the turn but the rider wasn’t. It’s a good idea to practice this beforehand, so you can do it instinctively when you get into trouble. At a safe rate of speed, take a turn a little too shallow, and then follow the maneuver above to increase the turn. Experiment with shifting your weight in a turn to learn what happens to your bike’s lean angle.

I don’t mean to be critical. But every year I see a lot of “flatlanders” come here and try to ride the canyons without adjusting their riding style, and a lot of them end up in the creek or worse. I think a little bit of knowledge and a few minutes of practice would keep a lot of them out of trouble.

BLA BLA  BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Thanks for your profound advice       DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD? :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Every person rides at there own level.
When I do go (DIE) I will know I had fun on the ride there.
Not think to myself, wish I would have done this or that.
O"yea, seen plenty of people wreck going strait also.
When its your time its your time, live a little, or at least let us live a little. :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Thanks again    DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD :)
Dave
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SPIDERMAN

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2008, 09:02:48 PM »

hey dave
            once wasn't enough ?

B B
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bigdave110

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2008, 09:05:00 PM »

hey dave
            once wasn't enough ?

B B
OOOOPS, my computer is taking 2 LONG, KEPT HITTING BUTTON. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
MY BAD, BB.
I just hate being talked 2 like i am still 5.
I am 6 going on **, hell I wont say.   ;)
Dave
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Talon

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2008, 09:31:45 PM »

BLA BLA  BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Thanks for your profound advice       DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD? :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Every person rides at there own level.
When I do go (DIE) I will know I had fun on the ride there.
Not think to myself, wish I would have done this or that.
O"yea, seen plenty of people wreck going strait also.
When its your time its your time, live a little, or at least let us live a little. :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Thanks again    DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD :)
Dave
???

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bigdave110

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2008, 09:38:16 PM »

???


HEEEEEY   POKERPIG
Why dont you tell this guy WTF he did wrong. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
And look DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD, no hill or curve. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for pic Talon
 (FLATLANDER) Dave110
HEE! HEE!
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Talon

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2008, 09:41:48 PM »

HEEEEEY   POKERPIG
Why dont you tell this guy WTF he did wrong. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
And look DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD, no hill or curve. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for pic Talon
 (FLATLANDER) Dave110
HEE! HEE!

Look at the skid marks on the road, not sure what he was doing.
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bigdave110

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Re: slaying the dragon 2008
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2008, 09:45:17 PM »

Saw those, was wondering the same thing.
We may not know what he was doing, but we sure know what he is about to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get real f'ed up.
Dave
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