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[RayG]

I just purchased the Baker + 1 oil pan with the True Track from Ron at True Track. Excellent people to deal with, a great product with great service is a win win for us. He is offering a group buy for us that is mentioned in the Vendor section. While talking to Ron and a person from Baker I explained that I had talked with 3 HD shops in the area I live in and 2 said warranty void period! One dealer said he would honor the warranty but cautioned me that it would be a crap shoot and that I could possibly run into trouble if I was crossing the country and had to have work done at another dealer, he was willing to work with me and was honest enough to tell me that I could run into problems he just could not guaranty how other dealers would handle it. The whole service department said it was a great product and anything that would reduce the heat should be considered. The MoCo went through tons of legal woes years ago when they insisted on only using their oil, most of you guys know the legal act this came under. Can we do the same for the Baker product. This is to good of a product that directly addresses our issue of excessive heat to not consider. It would be better to be prepared for any legal complications before they arrive. My question is, does anyone have any ideas on how to be proceed. Please don't tell me to just put in on and don't worry about, I've been through enough loosing HD warranty issues in my life already.

Thanks

Ray G   

[REGGAB]

I just purchased the Baker + 1 oil pan with the True Track from Ron at True Track. Excellent people to deal with, a great product with great service is a win win for us. He is offering a group buy for us that is mentioned in the Vendor section. While talking to Ron and a person from Baker I explained that I had talked with 3 HD shops in the area I live in and 2 said warranty void period! One dealer said he would honor the warranty but cautioned me that it would be a crap shoot and that I could possibly run into trouble if I was crossing the country and had to have work done at another dealer, he was willing to work with me and was honest enough to tell me that I could run into problems he just could not guaranty how other dealers would handle it. The whole service department said it was a great product and anything that would reduce the heat should be considered. The MoCo went through tons of legal woes years ago when they insisted on only using their oil, most of you guys know the legal act this came under. Can we do the same for the Baker product. This is to good of a product that directly addresses our issue of excessive heat to not consider. It would be better to be prepared for any legal complications before they arrive. My question is, does anyone have any ideas on how to be proceed. Please don't tell me to just put in on and don't worry about, I've been through enough loosing HD warranty issues in my life already.

Thanks

Ray G   

If I was gonna proceed, I'd have to ask the MOCO why a Baker +1 voids the warranty.  I'd ask for engineering data to support...........which I'd never receive for proprietary reasons, but I'd at least want to know why it voids the warranty.

[Hoist!]

If I was gonna proceed, I'd have to ask the MOCO why a Baker +1 voids the warranty.  I'd ask for engineering data to support...........which I'd never receive for proprietary reasons, but I'd at least want to know why it voids the warranty.

I can understand them saying that, as you're modifying their lube system design. Baker circuits things differently in their pan, and I can see HD making an issue. Do I GAS,? hell no! I just ordered one!!! FTW!!!

Hoist!

[grc]

I just purchased the Baker + 1 oil pan with the True Track from Ron at True Track. Excellent people to deal with, a great product with great service is a win win for us. He is offering a group buy for us that is mentioned in the Vendor section. While talking to Ron and a person from Baker I explained that I had talked with 3 HD shops in the area I live in and 2 said warranty void period! One dealer said he would honor the warranty but cautioned me that it would be a crap shoot and that I could possibly run into trouble if I was crossing the country and had to have work done at another dealer, he was willing to work with me and was honest enough to tell me that I could run into problems he just could not guaranty how other dealers would handle it. The whole service department said it was a great product and anything that would reduce the heat should be considered. The MoCo went through tons of legal woes years ago when they insisted on only using their oil, most of you guys know the legal act this came under. Can we do the same for the Baker product. This is to good of a product that directly addresses our issue of excessive heat to not consider. It would be better to be prepared for any legal complications before they arrive. My question is, does anyone have any ideas on how to be proceed. Please don't tell me to just put in on and don't worry about, I've been through enough loosing HD warranty issues in my life already.

Thanks

Ray G   

Ray, the first problem I see here is that you're talking to the wrong people.  The dealers and dealerships don't determine warranty coverage, the MoCo does that.  Unless those dealers can show you something in writing from the MoCo that says the Baker oil pan voids the warranty (and I'm 99% sure they can't), they are just blowin' smoke.  Call H-D direct and see what they say, and then if they try to BS you ask them about the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 and how that would relate to the situation.  What it all comes down to is that the only way they can deny coverage is if your modification directly caused whatever failure you have.  Assuming the oil pan didn't come with a plugged oil passage or a hole that leaked all the oil out, it's rather hard to figure how it could cause any problem.

Jerry

[hdbrad03]

I would almost bet that if you took a bike with this oil pan applied to 10 dealers I bet you would be lucky if 1 would even notice it was there.

 
      Brad

[JDOFLHRIDER]

Well guys if your dealer will stand behind you after the mods.they have done or you have done to be safe they should be the only ones to work on your bike. I only trust my motor guy so if when I'm on a trip and have a problem that I can't fix I wouldn't take a chance on strangers working on my bike and find a rental place and haul my bike home and get it fixed properly. On the heat problem my bike has been worked on and oil runs 180-190 degrees at the hottest. My motorman says the cam MoCo has in our bikes keeps to much heat in the combustion camber it's not in my oil and he has a experimental cam made to fix some of the heat and other issues in our motors. The bike he uses to test hypo parts on will be in for cams in the next few weeks.If the numbers look good when they do my enhancement they will put a set of them in my motor.I will keep yah updated .RIDE SAFE JDO

[REGGAB]

Well guys if your dealer will stand behind you after the mods.they have done or you have done to be safe they should be the only ones to work on your bike. I only trust my motor guy so if when I'm on a trip and have a problem that I can't fix I wouldn't take a chance on strangers working on my bike and find a rental place and haul my bike home and get it fixed properly. On the heat problem my bike has been worked on and oil runs 180-190 degrees at the hottest. My motorman says the cam MoCo has in our bikes keeps to much heat in the combustion camber it's not in my oil and he has a experimental cam made to fix some of the heat and other issues in our motors. The bike he uses to test hypo parts on will be in for cams in the next few weeks.If the numbers look good when they do my enhancement they will put a set of them in my motor.I will keep yah updated .RIDE SAFE JDO

Bingo.

[RedDevil]

I hate to seem the real nimrod here, but is there any empirical data to show that the extra quart of oil does anything beneficial besides adding an extra quart of oil to an oil change?   

   

[Twolanerider]

I hate to seem the real nimrod here, but is there any empirical data to show that the extra quart of oil does anything beneficial besides adding an extra quart of oil to an oil change?   

   

This issue bounced around awhile back.  Only warm fuzzies and supposition then too either.  The extra volume will of course make it take just a bit longer to get as warm as it's going to.  So there would be a point on the curve where one could specifically say the larger volume was cooler (i.e., hadn't got as warm yet).  But for extended runs I can't see it effectively lowering the operating temperature.  The oil still sets in the same location (the same heat sink) and goes through the same heat source.

Don't get me wrong. Obviously more oil is always a good thing.  And it can't hurt.  It just is unlikely to actually help very much in actual practice.

One area for sure where the larger volume could actually be a detriment though is in a bike that's a local runner.  Will take it that much longer to get the oil initially hot enough to boil itself out.  Some bar hoppers already have this problem when they only do short little in town runs.  The greater volume wouldn't be a benefit at all for those riders.

[RedDevil]

This issue bounced around awhile back.  Only warm fuzzies and supposition then too either.  The extra volume will of course make it take just a bit longer to get as warm as it's going to.  So there would be a point on the curve where one could specifically say the larger volume was cooler (i.e., hadn't got as warm yet).  But for extended runs I can't see it effectively lowering the operating temperature.  The oil still sets in the same location (the same heat sink) and goes through the same heat source.

Don't get me wrong. Obviously more oil is always a good thing.  And it can't hurt.  It just is unlikely to actually help very much in actual practice.

One area for sure where the larger volume could actually be a detriment though is in a bike that's a local runner.  Will take it that much longer to get the oil initially hot enough to boil itself out.  Some bar hoppers already have this problem when they only do short little in town runs.  The greater volume wouldn't be a benefit at all for those riders.

Thanks Don, that's what I was thinking but I didn't want to come across as a real technical amoeba (I'm not too far from that anyway).  To my line of thinking, once the oil is heated up, it's going to remain that until the bike is shut down, thus, again in my line of thinking, providing no additional benefit, other than, like you said, more oil is always better.  I'm just not sure that it's worth the extra expense of the new pan though.  If there was some real hard evidence that this was more beneficial, I would think that the MoCo, with their propensity to seize on a great idea for aftermarket sales,  would offer the increase capacity oil pan themselves.    

 

[Twolanerider]

Thanks Don, that's what I was thinking but I didn't want to come across as a real technical amoeba (I'm not too far from that anyway).  To my line of thinking, once the oil is heated up, it's going to remain that until the bike is shut down, thus, again in my line of thinking, providing no additional benefit, other than, like you said, more oil is always better.  I'm just not sure that it's worth the extra expense of the new pan though.  If there was some real hard evidence that this was more beneficial, I would think that the MoCo, with their propensity to seize on a great idea for aftermarket sales,  would offer the increase capacity oil pan themselves.    

 

You'd give the concept more credence if it was a separate sump, separated cooling source; something.  But it's just a little more oil in the same (hot) place.  More oil is better.  Everyone would agree.  Like you in this case I personally just can't see it as the cost of an oil pan better.

[RedDevil]

You'd give the concept more credence if it was a separate sump, separated cooling source; something.  But it's just a little more oil in the same (hot) place.  More oil is better.  Everyone would agree.  Like you in this case I personally just can't see it as the cost of an oil pan better.

Now that I could understand as being beneficial....I would think that the money saved from not buying the oil pan would be better invested in adding a second oil cooler.  There's a good article in this month's AI about dual oil coolers.

   

[grc]

The only way that question will ever be answered is when someone does real world testing to compare actual results versus theoretical and sales pitch claims.  In the interest of science and the common good I think some of our members in the hotter climates should volunteer to buy these oil pans and run some documented tests.

Back to theory, here is one piece of theory I haven't seen anyone discuss yet.  Yes, assuming a long enough period of time in high ambient conditions, you might expect the oil temp to eventually stabilize at roughly the same temp as the smaller volume would.  But, that doesn't take into account that the extra oil is being pumped through the hot engine at the same rate as before, so it has more time in the pan to transfer heat to the pan and then to the air.  The larger surface area of the oil pan adds to this affect as well.  We're probably talking a relatively small difference with only one additional quart, but when folks add oil coolers to achieve just a 10° reduction who is to say that adding more volume to gain another 5° isn't a good idea?

Obviously there are advantages to larger quantities of oil or you wouldn't see vehicles with 10 and 12 quart sumps.  Some of the advantage is the ability of a larger volume of oil to contain and control a larger amount of contaminants before a change is required.  That's one reason diesels have such large sumps, they tend to  put more combustion byproducts into the oil.  Another reason is as stated above, more time for the oil to transfer heat before the next trip through the engine.

Jerry

[Dan_Lockwood]

I think we all agree, more oil the better, regardless of the location.

When I had my 392 Hemi built, the builder wanted at least a 9 quart pan.  He used a windage tray, but the pan I had to make.  There aren't a lot of prefab pans for older Hemis out there.  I did the kick out on each side and ended up with about 9.5 quarts total.

In the case of the Baker+1 pan, I can see a major improvement could have been incorporated without much 'extra' casting changes.  All they would have had to do was to cast a few through holes from front to back that would allow for air passage through the oil.  When looking at the pan innards, there is room with very little rework involved to add maybe as many as 3 tubes cast into the pan up off the pan bottom so the oil would circle the air tubes.  This would let air go through the pan and the heat exchanger affect would be tremendous.  I'm thinking 5 to 10 degrees of drop possible.  With the added oil, the oil will stay in the pan longer and transfer better.

But alas, they did not do this.  So even with the extra quart of oil, it's got to be an improvement to the oil cooling the motor a bit.  Is it worth taking off the original and replacing it with a $950.00 pan?  You be the judge.

Here is a copy from the V-Twin forum and his remarks make some sense, but still, for $950 it's going to be a hard sell.

One of the main reasons we see for using the +1 Pan is for the increased internal volume, in other words, run it 1 quart low. This allows for better internal venting of air on the bigger motors. The other thing we like about it is the separation of oil return and supply. It's a nice piece.

Again looking at the pan innards, the baffles and the chambers they have to keep the different amounts of oil separated and with the not mixing the suction and return areas, this may be an improvement over stock.  This would fall into the "first in, first out" scenario.  I still think that some cooling tubes would make this product a good deal.

This of course is just the mad ramblings of someone that has nothing better to do.  This post and 50¢ will buy you a soda from our machine.

Have a great weekend to all.

    

[Hoist!]

I think we all agree, more oil the better, regardless of the location.

When I had my 392 Hemi built, the builder wanted at least a 9 quart pan.  He used a windage tray, but the pan I had to make.  There aren't a lot of prefab pans for older Hemis out there.  I did the kick out on each side and ended up with about 9.5 quarts total.

In the case of the Baker+1 pan, I can see a major improvement could have been incorporated without much 'extra' casting changes.  All they would have had to do was to cast a few through holes from front to back that would allow for air passage through the oil.  When looking at the pan innards, there is room with very little rework involved to add maybe as many as 3 tubes cast into the pan up off the pan bottom so the oil would circle the air tubes.  This would let air go through the pan and the heat exchanger affect would be tremendous.  I'm thinking 5 to 10 degrees of drop possible.  With the added oil, the oil will stay in the pan longer and transfer better.

But alas, they did not do this.  So even with the extra quart of oil, it's got to be an improvement to the oil cooling the motor a bit.  Is it worth taking off the original and replacing it with a $950.00 pan?  You be the judge.

Here is a copy from the V-Twin forum and his remarks make some sense, but still, for $950 it's going to be a hard sell.

Again looking at the pan innards, the baffles and the chambers they have to keep the different amounts of oil separated and with the not mixing the suction and return areas, this may be an improvement over stock.  This would fall into the "first in, first out" scenario.  I still think that some cooling tubes would make this product a good deal.

This of course is just the mad ramblings of someone that has nothing better to do.  This post and 50¢ will buy you a soda from our machine.

Have a great weekend to all.

    

That's the 2-pc billet pan from Baker. The 1-piece cast pan is about $450 from TT w/hardware.

Hoist!