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[RedFXR2]

Accel, Compu-Fire, Compu-Fire Elite, Crane Hi-4, Dyna, or Daytona Twin Tec?  All-inclusive kits (if I need all the pieces) or various seperate components?

I've seen them mentioned repeatedly in other threads but I don't think a thread has ever been devoted to them. I know some of you guys have aftermarket systems on your FXR's and I'm mulling over a change now so maybe you can steer me to a decision.

I already have a SE ignition module, SE coil and SE wires.  I'm looking at single-fire options.  Some of them have the whole show--sensor plate, ignition module, coil and wires.  Some seem to only have a sensor plate with various settings.  Some offer the components seperately.

If I get a Accel, Compu-Fire, Compu-Fire Elite,  or Crane Hi-4 sensor plate, do I simply keep my SE igntion module and coil?    Looking at a catalog, they seem to imply that these sensor plates are stand-alone systems.  Or must I also replace all the existing components with a matched setup?

The Compu-Fire Elite 1 says "no module to mount".  So would I just remove the SE ignition  module and let the wires dangle?  The other Compu-Fire model states that it corrects for Tachometer output.  I guess the Tach is looking for a dual-fire system and must be corrected for single-fire input.  The others (Crane, Accel, compu-Fire's own Elite, Daytona, Dyna) don't mention this.  Do they all do it automatically?

The Crane Fireball Hi-4E apparently requires it's own igniton module, but the other Crane Hi-4 system is a sensor plate, coil and wires.  With the latter, use my existing ignition module or none?

So what's the recommendation for the best way to go.  I've read that the realistic expectation here is for smoother operation and easier starts.  Maybe a bit more power due to the finer adjustability, but that's not really the point--that's what I've read anyway.  I certainly want reliability.  Can I keep any of my present parts or must I replace all--the sensor plate, ignition module and coil?

[fxr4mikey]

I tried to put my answers within your quote, but it says that I exceeded the max of 6000 characters   

so I'm making two or three post to put it in here ...... I don't understand what's wrong........

Accel, Compu-Fire, Compu-Fire Elite, Crane Hi-4, Dyna, or Daytona Twin Tec?  All-inclusive kits (if I need all the pieces) or various seperate components?

I've seen them mentioned repeatedly in other threads but I don't think a thread has ever been devoted to them. I know some of you guys have aftermarket systems on your FXR's and I'm mulling over a change now so maybe you can steer me to a decision.

I already have a SE ignition module, SE coil and SE wires.  I'm looking at single-fire options.  Some of them have the whole show--sensor plate, ignition module, coil and wires.  Some seem to only have a sensor plate with various settings.  Some offer the components seperately.

If I get a Accel, Compu-Fire, Compu-Fire Elite,  or Crane Hi-4 sensor plate, do I simply keep my SE igntion module and coil?    Looking at a catalog, they seem to imply that these sensor plates are stand-alone systems.  Or must I also replace all the existing components with a matched setup?

I have the Compu-Fire system in my bike.
Here is the one that I have:

PN 20600 Ignition Module Kit for stock to mild performance
          1970-Later Big Twins and Sportsters (except Twin Cam)

 Use with P/N 51105 Tach Adapter for single fire coil tach signal.

http://www.compufire.com/harley-main.html

[fxr4mikey]

I bought the single fire coil as a SEPARATE item off ebay for like 35 bucks.
You can get DUAL COILS for the single fire operation OR, you can get a 'single coil' that performs the job.
I chose to get a 'single coil' that performs the 'single fire' operation
The reason I did this is because it mounts right where the stock coil goes (more on this later), and I didn't have to try to find a hiding place for 'dual coils'

The Compu-Fire Elite 1 says "no module to mount". 

That's correct, you only have the sensor plate that goes in the nose cone, and all the electronics are on that plate

So would I just remove the SE ignition  module and let the wires dangle? 

I did not remove my stock ignition module
I 'cut' the wires, tucked up the ends and zip tied them up, and spliced the new ignition system into the harness
This way the bike could always be returned to stock configuration if desired

The other Compu-Fire model states that it corrects for Tachometer output.

If you get the compu-fire system, and you go with a single, single fire coil, you also have to buy the tach moudule, which I did (pn listed above)
If you go with 'dual coils' I am pretty sure you do not need the tach module. Using dual coils the wiring to the Tach is different than if you use a single, single fire coil.
With the dual coils, you wire the common post of both coils together and then to the tach.

 I guess the Tach is looking for a dual-fire system and must be corrected for single-fire input. 

That's correct. The stock system, being dual fire, sends twice as many pulses to the tach than what the engine is turning. If you don't adjust for that when you switch over to single fire your Tach will only be reading half of what tThe engine is turning.  There is a very small module, not much larger than 1/2 the size of your thumb, that connects to the center post of the single fire coil, and then on to the tach. This module compensates for the number of pulses coming from the center post of the single fire coil and sends the correct number of pulses to the tach


The others (Crane, Accel, compu-Fire's own Elite, Daytona, Dyna) don't mention this.  Do they all do it automatically?

  I do not know  I suppose they could, but I don't know how they would do this ... automatically .... the tach has to be wired into the coil(s)

The Crane Fireball Hi-4E apparently requires it's own igniton module, but the other Crane Hi-4 system is a sensor plate, coil and wires.  With the latter, use my existing ignition module or none?

  I do not know 

[fxr4mikey]

So what's the recommendation for the best way to go. 

I went with the Compu-Fire Selectable Advance Ignition Module
Why ?
1) about half the cost of some of the other brand names
2) I felt secure in the performance and realiablity of the compu-fire due to friends that I know who run them
3) ease of installation
4) flexibility - will run either dual or single fire, switchable
5) wide selectable rev limit range
6) wide selectable advance cure settings
7) easy to time
easy to tune to your bike
9) I went with one, single fire coil because it mounts where the stock coil goes - WATCH THIS .... the coil that I got is a little bit deeper in profile and the stock chrome cover will not fit over it. I haven't modified the cover, or shopped for an after market one.  If you chk pics of my bike you might notice the black coil hanging out there
10) I have over 10K miles on this ignition system and not one, NOT ONE hickcup, I anticipate that it will remain this way.
11) The bike starts easier than it did with the stock ign sys


I've read that the realistic expectation here is for smoother operation and easier starts. 

I noticed that the bike ran smother, and pulled harder and longer into the RPM range. It was noticeable !  This was one change that was done alone, no other changes where made at the time I installed it.

Why does it pull more

1) I increased the rev limit to 6K  (at 6K rpm the ign module will cut pulses to the coil, limiting the rpm range to whatever you have it set to - when you hit the limit, the bike sounds like it is
'miss firing'  which it is   LOL ..... that's how they limit the rpm range

2) improved timing advance over stock - stock advance curve is limited to something like 28-30 degrees. The stock system also begins to retard the advance when the bike gets into the 4.4K rpm range. If you look at a dyno sheet running the dual fire stock ign system you'll see the torque begin to drop at this time
With the compu-fire (and I assume others as well) the system NEVER RETARDS the advance all the way through the RPM range (that is once the max advance is reached).  The max timing advance curve for the compu-fire is 35 degrees.  This is 5-7 more degrees than stock, and the advace remains all the way to 6K rpms.  This you can feel in the seat of your pants because the bike continues TO BUILD POWER ALL THE WAY TO THE END OF THE RPM RANGE.  Well of course the cam has an impact also as to when the bike quits making power, but at least your ignition system is not retarding the advance curve as it gets into the higher RPM range.  You know the higher the RPM, the more advance you need, and you need that advance to remain there, if you retard the advance at higher RPMs, you loose power ..... it's an emissions thing with the stock builds

[fxr4mikey]

Maybe a bit more power due to the finer adjustability, but that's not really the point--that's what I've read anyway.  I certainly want reliability.

As I stated, I have over 10K miles on my compu-fire system with NO HICKUPS !
I have as much confidence in this system as I did in the stock system

Can I keep any of my present parts or must I replace all--the sensor plate, ignition module and coil?

Depends - if you want to continue to run DUAL FIRE, and you get the compu-fire ignition module, you can keep your stock (or SE) coil
If you want to run SINGLE FIRE, you will have to replace your coil - you have two choices then, 1) ONE single fire coil, or 2) DUAL single fire coils  (I prefer, and chose, to run ONE single fire coil)
The sensor plate is going to be replaced with this system, which also replaces the ignition module.  This system performs the functions that are contained in your ignition module. It's just that all of the electronics are mounted on the sensor plate instead of under the side cover
[/quote]


I hope that I've been of 'some help'
It'd be nice to help someone else, since everyone here helps me SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH  !!!!!!!!!!!!

[RedFXR2]

Thanks for the info, Mikey.  I dropped in on my local shop at lunch today and got educated a bit more by the Tech.

Apparently, most manufacturers have the choice between keeping the stock HD sensor plate and using it along with their aftermarket ignition module, or eliminating the HD ignition module and replacing the HD sensor plate with theirs, which incorporates a mini-size ignition module.  Either way, if you go to single-fire, you must then replace the HD coil with a single-fire version.  I'm starting to get it, now.

Right now I'm leaning towards keeping the stock sensor plate and going with a "plug and play" ignition module and coil.  I'm not sure why, but I don't like the idea of my existing ignition module 8-pin plug dangling free and empty behind the side cover.

Daytona Twin Tec and Crane Hi-4 systems both claim to offer single-fire coils that fit behind the stock coil covers--I like that, too.  And Daytona is having a sort of factory sale at the moment as well.  Cheaper to get all the pieces (module, coil, wires, tach module, and bits and pieces) from them than equivalent Crane kits on ebay.

I'll wait to buy until (hopefully) others weigh in but it's starting to make sense, now.  Thanks again.

[fxr4mikey]

Thanks for the info, Mikey. 
You're Welcome

I dropped in on my local shop at lunch today and got educated a bit more by the Tech.
Education is always a good thing !

Apparently, most manufacturers have the choice between keeping the stock HD sensor plate and using it along with their aftermarket ignition module, or eliminating the HD ignition module and replacing the HD sensor plate with theirs, which incorporates a mini-size ignition module.  Either way, if you go to single-fire, you must then replace the HD coil with a single-fire version.
That's right
 I'm starting to get it, now.

Right now I'm leaning towards keeping the stock sensor plate and going with a "plug and play" ignition module and coil.  I'm not sure why, but I don't like the idea of my existing ignition module 8-pin plug dangling free and empty behind the side cover.

This might even help you with your choice.  If you go with one that replaces the stock module with theirs, on the sensor plate, you have two choices about using the 8-pin plug
1) if you want to use the plug, you'll have to put pins on the cables from the new ignition module, you'll need the tools to do this, and you'll need pin pusher to get the old ones out
2) you can cut the old plug off and splice the cables from the new system into the harness.

I chose to go with option number two. IF YOU USE THIS OPTION
1) leave enough cable on the end of the plug so you could splice it back in if you EVER WANTED TO
2) leave enough cable on the OTHER SIDE of the plug so you have enough room to splice the new wires into the harness

Daytona Twin Tec and Crane Hi-4 systems both claim to offer single-fire coils that fit behind the stock coil covers--I like that, too. 

yep, I am a cheep bastage and wasn't willing to pay the price .... but I might end up doing it anyways, cause I don't have a cover over my coil, and I want one ..... HOWEVER, in my own defense;  when I bought it, it said, replaces stock .... they didn't say that the deep profile wouldn't fit under the cover ...... so you know how that stuff goes

And Daytona is having a sort of factory sale at the moment as well.  Cheaper to get all the pieces (module, coil, wires, tach module, and bits and pieces) from them than equivalent Crane kits on ebay.

Just a question, even on sale, isn't the Daytona stuff much more expensive than the Compu-Fire  ?

I'll wait to buy until (hopefully) others weigh in but it's starting to make sense, now.  Thanks again.

Yeah, I'm anxious to see what some of the other guys have to say on this subject 

You're VERY WELCOME, I'm glad that it was useful !!!

[RedFXR2]

If you go with one that replaces the stock module with theirs, on the sensor plate, you have two choices about using the 8-pin plug
1) if you want to use the plug, you'll have to put pins on the cables from the new ignition module, you'll need the tools to do this, and you'll need pin pusher to get the old ones out
2) you can cut the old plug off and splice the cables from the new system into the harness.

I chose to go with option number two.

IF YOU USE THIS OPTION
1) leave enough cable on the end of the plug so you could splice it back in if you EVER WANTED TO
2) leave enough cable on the OTHER SIDE of the plug so you have enough room to splice the new wires into the harness

Yep.  I've already replaced the stock cam sensor a while back and had to dismantle and re-assemble the pins/plug.  This is another reason why I like the idea of the frame-mounted module instead of the nosecone/sensor plate mount.


... cause I don't have a cover over my coil, and I want one ..... HOWEVER, in my own defense;  when I bought it, it said, replaces stock .... they didn't say that the deep profile wouldn't fit under the cover ...... so you know how that stuff goes

Oh yes.  Well, they say it will fit.  From the pictures it looks like it will.  In reality, there's always the chance....

Just a question, even on sale, isn't the Daytona stuff much more expensive than the Compu-Fire  ?

The whole shooting match from Daytona (Evo stuff is on sale, our bikes are old and out of date, you know) is $402.  That's the module, coil, plug wires, hardware.  Your part from Compu-Fire is $260 but then I'd have to get a single-fire coil and maybe wires as well.  The Crane Fireball Hi-4E, having the same list of stuff as the kit from Daytona, is $500 from J&P.  Same stuff from Dyna, the 2000i model, is $400, also from J&P.

Back to my lunchtime visit to my local Tech--he pointed out that I might not see $400 worth of expectations fulfilled, depending on what those expectations were.  But from reading your experience, the easier starting and smoother running are my expectations. And maybe a touch more throttle response.  I'm not expecting to do this and go out and challenge a bunch of Hayabusas.

[fxr4mikey]

Back to my lunchtime visit to my local Tech--he pointed out that I might not see $400 worth of expectations fulfilled, depending on what those expectations were.  But from reading your experience, the easier starting and smoother running are my expectations. And maybe a touch more throttle response.  I'm not expecting to do this and go out and challenge a bunch of Hayabusas.

You should experience those 3 things

easier starting and smoother running are my expectations. And maybe a touch more throttle response

that's what I got on mine, and one more thing ...... I'll be supprised, when you get it done, if you tell me that you don't fell more power than before

not that you're gonna go out and challenge a bunch of Hayabusas.
but you will feel more power

Good luck,
Keep us posted on this

[RedFXR2]

not that you're gonna go out and challenge a bunch of Hayabusas.

Heck, I bet I could put these ignition parts on, take her out to I-95, blip the throttle and the Hayabusas would scatter like roaches when you turn on the kitchen lights.

What, you don't think so?

I'll keep you posted.  Thanks again for the input--anybody else with any aftermarket ignition system info?

[FXR2evo99]

fxr4mikey~~~~

YEEEEESSSSSS, Virginia, there is INDEED A SANTEEE CLAUUUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!



FINALLY someone who TYPES as much as meeeeeee~~~~     

 

Laughing.....

Regards,

Tim

[FXR2evo99]

Ok guys....

I must admit I am lost, the only thing I know for sure is both of you have done or at least will be doing screamin eagle heads....Mike you haven't changed Pistons on your FXR2 so why did you change your iginition coil and what specific results did you arrive at by doing so, I mean you have already changed your coil once right?

SO why did you do this Mikey???  the single fire coil?

Mike why are you desiring to do it, are you having problems or are you just bored and looking for a "project"?

I need some education on this please, when you guys talk about "more reliable"?   What are you both experiencing currently that you feel you need "more reliablity"? 

So in "layman's terms" what are you actually experiencing with the OEM Stock Iginition set up and what did you hope to "accomplish" by moving to something different or away from OEM stock?

It "appears" you may be spending $400.00 +or- and what will you get for this "money" as it relates to the "diveablity" of your FXR's?

I did several years ago, put a Crane H4 Fireball <~~~or something like that, on to my 2003 Dyna Low Rider, and what it did was allow me to adjust or "retard" the timing for the bike, as well as control the MAX RPMS raising such up to 6500 or something like that although I never raised the limitations that high basically kept it at 5700 for MAX RPM. 

The reason I put this "ignition module" on at the time is that I had put a mild 95" engine modification with 10:1 KB Pistons, S&S 570 cams, ported and polished heads and was running a Cometic .030 gasket resulting in the bike running at 10.5:1 compression and it was "pinging" and hard starting.....so I added the "ignition" module mentioned above to help with this problem.....cost was over $300.00 and I STILL had pinging going on.....eventually I grew tired of all of it and pulled the pistons and installed a set of Wiseco 9:1 compression Flat Top Pistons, along with using a Cometic .040 thousandths gasket while continuing to run the S&S 570 Cam.  I ended up creating a compression ratio of approximately 9.25:1 and could technically range from 9.0:1 to 9.5:1 compression based upon what was done to my heads as well.   Through this process discovered that the S&S 570 cam should not be put in anything running over 10:1 compression. 

At the time, I had much debate about what I should do ranging from merely changing the head gasket from .030 to .040, to changing the cam from the 570 to a 585, ultimately I took the most aggressive and expensive option by simply altering the pistons and the gasket as I just mentioned.  I ended up with a bike that quit "denonating" by pinging and a easier starting bike.....

OK SO THAT WAS my experience with altering an iginition on a TWIN CAM, but getting back to our FXR's here, what is it that you guys are actually accomplishing by doing what you did Mikey and what you are thinking about doing Mike?

Regards,

Tim

[fxr4mikey]

fxr4mikey~~~~

YEEEEESSSSSS, Virginia, there is INDEED A SANTEEE CLAUUUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!



FINALLY someone who TYPES as much as meeeeeee~~~~     

 

Laughing.....

Regards,

Tim

 


that just can't be right 

 

[fxr4mikey]

Ok guys....

I must admit I am lost, the only thing I know for sure is both of you have done or at least will be doing screamin eagle heads....Mike you haven't changed Pistons on your FXR2 so why did you change your iginition coil and what specific results did you arrive at by doing so, I mean you have already changed your coil once right?

SO why did you do this Mikey???  the single fire coil?
This was going to be ONE of the items that I was going to do in my build. I was going to do my build in June of this year. When I got the tank off and realized that I didn't have room to get the rocker box bolt out of the rear cylinder I put the project on hold.  I already had the ignition system in had because it was to be a part of the project.  More on this in your later questions as to 'why' I wanted it.

Mike why are you desiring to do it, are you having problems or are you just bored and looking for a "project"?

I need some education on this please, when you guys talk about "more reliable"?   What are you both experiencing currently that you feel you need "more reliablity"? 
I didn't do it for realiability reasons. However I do feel that it is AS RELIABLE as the stock ignition system and have had NO problems with it since I installed in over 10K miles ago in June.

So in "layman's terms" what are you actually experiencing with the OEM Stock Iginition set up and what did you hope to "accomplish" by moving to something different or away from OEM stock?
What I was hoping to get, and did get was:  A TUNABLE ignition system.  One where I could set the rev limit to where I wanted it (6K) stock is at about 5.2K (I OFTEN hit the rev limit on my bike), one that had more timing advance than stock, which this does (max advance at 35 degrees vs 28-30 for stock), one that I could adjust WHERE in the rpm range the timing advance would come on (helps to eliminate pinging if this is a problem for you, otherwise you can bring on the advance sooner !, one that does not retard the timing advance as I get into the upper ranges of the rpm limit.   All of these factors provide you with the ability to tune the ignition system to match up with your cam, heads and exhaust.  For me it was to be a part of the total build that I was going to do in June past, but will now complete this December.  I find that the bike starts easier than the stock ign sys, the bike has better throttle response than the stock ign sys, and the bike builds power all the way through the range until the cam quits - this is because this ign system DOES NOT RETARD the timing advance as you get into the higher RPM range like the stock system does.  The stock system will begin to retard your timing advance when you get to about 4.2K RPM.  This reduces power 


It "appears" you may be spending $400.00 +or- and what will you get for this "money" as it relates to the "diveablity" of your FXR's?
I got my Compu-Fire system off ebay for about $240 dollars last June, plus $35 for a single fire coil. I have $275 in it, not $400+

I did several years ago, put a Crane H4 Fireball <~~~or something like that, on to my 2003 Dyna Low Rider, and what it did was allow me to adjust or "retard" the timing for the bike, as well as control the MAX RPMS raising such up to 6500 or something like that although I never raised the limitations that high basically kept it at 5700 for MAX RPM. 

The reason I put this "ignition module" on at the time is that I had put a mild 95" engine modification with 10:1 KB Pistons, S&S 570 cams, ported and polished heads and was running a Cometic .030 gasket resulting in the bike running at 10.5:1 compression and it was "pinging" and hard starting.....so I added the "ignition" module mentioned above to help with this problem.....cost was over $300.00 and I STILL had pinging going on.....eventually I grew tired of all of it and pulled the pistons and installed a set of Wiseco 9:1 compression Flat Top Pistons, along with using a Cometic .040 thousandths gasket while continuing to run the S&S 570 Cam.  I ended up creating a compression ratio of approximately 9.25:1 and could technically range from 9.0:1 to 9.5:1 compression based upon what was done to my heads as well.   Through this process discovered that the S&S 570 cam should not be put in anything running over 10:1 compression. 

At the time, I had much debate about what I should do ranging from merely changing the head gasket from .030 to .040, to changing the cam from the 570 to a 585, ultimately I took the most aggressive and expensive option by simply altering the pistons and the gasket as I just mentioned.  I ended up with a bike that quit "denonating" by pinging and a easier starting bike.....

OK SO THAT WAS my experience with altering an iginition on a TWIN CAM, but getting back to our FXR's here, what is it that you guys are actually accomplishing by doing what you did Mikey and what you are thinking about doing Mike?

Regards,

Tim

Tim, was there anything in your question regarding how the ignition system can improve performance ?    Say, as it relates to timing advance and rev limiting, and not retarding the timing advance, or single fire vs dual fire ?

anything in your question to me that I didn't answer .... or provide enough detail ?

Mikey

[RedFXR2]

Mike why are you desiring to do it, are you having problems or are you just bored and looking for a "project"?

I've been kicking this idea around for a while.  And I might be looking for a project.  It's been a few months now.

I need some education on this please, when you guys talk about "more reliable"?   What are you both experiencing currently that you feel you need "more reliablity"?

I have no electrical reliability problems now--don't want any.  That's why I mentioned it.  Electrical components and all....  Hard to look at them and know their condition. 

So in "layman's terms" what are you actually experiencing with the OEM Stock Iginition set up and what did you hope to "accomplish" by moving to something different or away from OEM stock?

Easier starts, smoother operation.  Maybe a bit better throttle response.  Might be fun to play with the various timing selections.

It "appears" you may be spending $400.00 +or- and what will you get for this "money" as it relates to the "diveablity" of your FXR's?

$402 Daytona Twin Tec system is now down to $318 through Axiom Cycles.  Love that internet.   Now, will the results be worth even $318?  Hard to say.  That's why I havent done it yet.  Although it's intriguing.  Who knows, I might be patient and watch ebay.

Certainly I can't do anything until I hear Howie's $.02 worth.  Well Howie, what do you think?