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Author Topic: our approach to making power  (Read 3617 times)

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skyhook

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our approach to making power
« on: December 04, 2008, 06:41:43 AM »

I asked al taylor what does he think of cvo 110 heads and here's what I got...opinions?




What I need to do is measure the port volume on these heads I have seen pictures, have not had a set in my hands yet I pioneered that chamber design back in 1984 on evo heads. The H.D. motor is not as sensitive to port volume as some would like you to believe.It is important But the short intake tract lets the motor see a small port even if it ground way out. What it does affect is the cam. Depending on what bike the motor is in (weight is a big factor in the engine combo) will determine the extent of the modifications and torque gains. For the most part the H.D. engineers are not stupid and have matched the port volume to the displacement O.K.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION NOW  Most people get confused with this. I had a hard time explaining this to many of the best engine builders in nascar! And proved it on the dyno to all of them. Most engine builders think you need a larger port to make more peak power. You have to balance the port volume. In the old days most heads did not have enough meat in them to be able to to ported to large enough volume to get that balance.So of course as they ground them out they make more and more power untill they ground into the water jacket or fins.   

A normally aspirated engine loses efficencey as rpm's increase above peak torque.(That is why I will have fuel and air flow meter on my dyno) As rpm's increase there is less time to fill the cylinder with air. Thus less bang per powerpulse. So how come horsepower goes up as tq. falls off? The best way to explain is by example.

WE have a single cylinder engine that makes 1 hp per powerpulse at 1000 rpm, thus producing 500 hp in 1 minute (4 stroke fires every other stroke). Now we change porting + cam. Now the motor will spin to 2000 rpm, but to get it to do that we shrunk the port or put in a smaller cam. As a result we lose tq. but pick up Hp. So now our motor makes .75 HP per powerpulse. Less efficient, BUT we made 750 hp in the same period of time. Who wins that race?

A too large port kills velocity and too small is a restriction. NOTE: we can get away with a larger port on an injected motor ( with injectors pointed at the valve) because the air now does not have to carry it's big fat buddy (fuel) with it. This depending on port size would lower the rpm point of peak tq.

The hard part of building engines is balancing the port size with cam to obtain the tq. and hp. in the range you want. A typical bandaid fix is to use a smaller cam when the ports are too big or a bigger cam with too small a port...both have major drawbacks.

HD has figured this out and is using bigger ports to make tq. and limiting the peak power as a result. I would not weld in the chambers or the port but mill the head to increace C.R. then balance with the approrate cam. Welding the chamber will hurt flow. I would only weld the port if it was huge. The other big factor in making tq. is maximzing ignition timing...just a few degrees of timing will pick up as much as 5 or 6 ft lbs This is where chamber shape, size, dual plugs, C.R. and a dyno come into play. You scan see that increasing and decreasing the port size will effect the point (rpm) and amount at which you will see peak Tq. and HP.

I would try flow testing $75.00 (includes checking port volume). C.C ing the chambers, milling the heads and setting C.R, $80.00. Disassembly ,cleaning and assembly $75.00 / $95.00 if we install hi lift springs. Blueprinting would not be a bad idea, then clean up the areas @ the seats for better throttle response. 275.00 Upon dissassembly if we see any problems(pitted seats, worn guides etc.) we will call the customer.  With the flow,volume  and compression ratio data in hand then we can make a proper cam choice. The price of course depends on the type of cam. We will need the heads + Pistons and the deck height (how far the piston sits down in the bore.) He will need to dyno it afterward to see the full potenial of the work. Turn around 7 days after I receive them.

   

             

   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 06:30:31 PM by skyhook »
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Hugh Janis

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Re: Al Taylor's take on cvo 110 heads
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2008, 08:31:27 AM »

Interesting but nothing specific to the 110 heads.
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alejandro

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Re: Al Taylor's take on cvo 110 heads
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2008, 02:56:54 PM »

i have to admit this:

I DON'T HAVE A FREAKIN' CLUE WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.
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skyhook

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Re: Al Taylor's take on cvo 110 heads
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2008, 04:47:32 PM »

sorry if the title was misleading
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wcgrinder

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Re: Al Taylor's take on cvo 110 heads
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2008, 10:43:02 AM »

The air cooled engine is extremely sensitive to temperature.We ran a stock tc88 engine on a superflow 901 engine dyno as  the head temp got as little as 15 degrees over optimum. Hp would drop instantly 10%  and continue to fall as temp went up.Some of this just the nature of the beast exspecialy when  the displacement increases and not the number of cylinders.(such as the cvo 110 and trying to get past the EPA specs.) The larger combustion chamber and semi hemi design  of the tc combine to produce a combustion chamber that is very sensitive to  ignition timing and fuel air ratio.Thus with temperature, it can quickly get out of the range of efficient combustion and EPA specs.  As it promotes slow flame propagation and detonation.Dual plugging helps.This allows us to retard timing keeping or Evan adding Tq> and H.P. and lessoning the detonation. Aftermarket builders are not bound to the rules as H.D. Evan Though by law they are! Aftermarket builders break the rules and are able to extract that xtra Tq. and Hp. The factory is a bit hamstrung by the fact that they must addhear to the rules.But does not want to give up the beloved air cooled 45 v twin. Note the slow acceptance of the v rod. But the public demands more performance?Long live the aftermarket!!         
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SPIDERMAN

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Re: Al Taylor's take on cvo 110 heads
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2008, 01:01:23 PM »

Who is Al Taylor and why should I be impressed with anything he has to say (even if I could understand it which I don't )

Would somebody please re-write the post that started this thread in a way us shade tree mechanics might understand and also while you're at it, see if you can somehow reference what's being said to a set of 110 Harley-Davidson heads.

No disrespect intended, but this thread is not very useful as written

B B
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miker

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Re: Al Taylor's take on cvo 110 heads
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2008, 01:07:12 PM »

Do you want me too BB???   :D
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Hoist!

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Re: Al Taylor's take on cvo 110 heads
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2008, 01:08:49 PM »

Do you want me too BB???   :D

BWAA!!!HAAA!!!HAAA!!!HAAA!!! :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:

Hoist! 8)
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miker

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Re: Al Taylor's take on cvo 110 heads
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2008, 01:11:45 PM »

Maybe in igpay atinlay?   :D

Only fussin ya!  ;D
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skyhook

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Re: our approach to making power
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2008, 07:04:41 PM »

you guys are too much!...but I like this forum for the very fact that comedy is encouraged

al taylor is the guy that ported the heads on my wife's bike couple years ago...I was very pleased with his work...I was also astonished that he does no advertising on these forums...and I've always been jealous of the pros, the respect they get, and want to be a part of helping folks have quick, reliable harleys...so it was natural that I become al's public relations man...not saying we're better than baisley, sachs, ronzello, coffey, etc, just offering you fellas another alternative
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erniezap

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Re: our approach to making power
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2008, 08:06:23 PM »

So Skyhook, are you now working for him?  If so, please read the rules regarding vendors 
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=2539.0

Thanks!
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Hoist!

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Re: our approach to making power
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2008, 08:09:40 PM »

So Skyhook, are you now working for him?  If so, please read the rules regarding vendors 
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=2539.0

Thanks!

Don't know if you're aware or if it, or if it matters, but he did coordinate this earlier. He's in the Vendor Section already.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=29790.msg483650#msg483650

Hoist! 8)
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Iglide

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Re: our approach to making power
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2008, 08:13:10 PM »

you guys are too much!...but I like this forum for the very fact that comedy is encouraged

al taylor is the guy that ported the heads on my wife's bike couple years ago...I was very pleased with his work...I was also astonished that he does no advertising on these forums...and I've always been jealous of the pros, the respect they get, and want to be a part of helping folks have quick, reliable harleys...so it was natural that I become al's public relations man...not saying we're better than baisley, sachs, ronzello, coffey, etc, just offering you fellas another alternative

Ok, BB.... There's your answer. So hammer down Big Daddy, Spell Check Em!  :drink:
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Hugh Janis

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Re: our approach to making power
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2008, 08:25:11 PM »

you guys are too much!...but I like this forum for the very fact that comedy is encouraged


Might not be encouraged, or even welcome for that matter.  But it should always be expected!  :orange: :bananarock: :mango: :apple: :pepper:
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skyhook

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Re: our approach to making power
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2008, 10:44:39 PM »

oh I almost forgot the biggest news...we've gotten a patent on our newest innovation...no one else can even come close to this miracle invention...made of rubber...a continuous band 1/2" x 8"...it's called a powerband...available for a limited time only for the low, low price of a dollar two-ninety-eight!
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