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[CVOandChop]

I am upgrading a motor.  I like low end torque, but want a rideable bagger (Street Glide to be exact), for 2up riding occassionally.

Will probably get a Carbeurated motor.  Thinking of JIMS 120 vs. HD 103 with HTCC heads & pistons.

Any comments on either choice?  Reliability?  Everyday, "spirited" riding.  Will not be running down a track, but do enjoy to crack the throttle.

Because of my loaction, I am looking for something that my local HD dealer can fix, tweak, & tune, without being too exotic.

Any help appreciated.

 [smiley=drink.gif]

[JimsSEEG]

I'll throw this out -

Based on your guidelines below (you didn't mention what kind of bike) - I would consider a couple of things:

- First - decide how much you are willing to spend. This is important - many a build has come up short because of not budgeting enough money.
- Second - decide on what you will be spending the most of your time doing: cruising, touring, spirited riding or wanting to be "king of the hill".
- Third - consider FI - by the time you get a carb setup done a new performance build, the costs for carb vs.ECM/SW/tiuning are fairly close.
- Last - who's is available to do your work - Dealer or Indy, can they do all of the work or will they send part of it out? I say this because some shops don't do thier own machine work Builder vs the tuner on who goofed on what when your not happy.

As far as motors go, here is a basic rundown: These are estimates based on my experience. I estimated approx $500 in the 95" builds for labor and about $300 for tuning / parts on your existing carb. If you go FI or change carbs completely, then add about $300 to $400 for either a new ECM, SERT or Power Commander or a new Carb

95" build - no headwork           $2k        Good for cruizing, touring, riding two up - basically just plain
                                                 fun.
95" build w/ headwork             $3k to $5k   Same as above, but more spirited. Grin factor goes way up
                                                 with the right combination
103" build                               $4.5k to $7k  Good touring, cruizing. Can be a real hot street bike w/
                                                 right cams and headwork.
120" crate motor (motor only)  $10k This definitely get you in th e"king of the hill" territory.

As far as reliability, all the options can be very reliable if they are built correctly by a qulified mechanicusing quality parts. Once the new motor is in, there are "other" items that will need to be looked at: beefing up suspension, possibly better quality drive belt, the list goes on especially when dealing with the higher end 103" and 120" options. But you knew this when you bought the bike in the first place and had to add the second part.....

My .02
Jim

Sign in the shop reads: "speed is a question of money - how much you got??? That ain't enough"

[CVOandChop]

Thanks for the info.

Bike = FLHX

Have a 95CI with stock heads on FXDWG now & have "outgrown it".  Need a little quicker especially considering greater mass of FLHX.

Have decided it will be 103CI with heads or 120CI.  I do not want to buy a drag bike which is not street rideable.  Bragging rights are fun but not prime concern.

 [smiley=drink.gif]

PS: like the last quote!!

[Big Time]

CVO... for starters, EFI is a HUGE advantage over carb, but consult your dealer about tuning as the 06 bike have the catalyst exhaust and EPA's fun robbing emissions. My suggestion is if you don't want to spend the dough for the 103 which is sort for a gas hoggin' slug in stock tune, go with a HTCC (non ported) and SE 211 head setup. Your big bore WG is probably around 80 horse and this will get you around 95 to 100 with good exhaust (ie Rinehart or Bassani duals). Keep in mind that you will need a 44mm CV or it won't have enough breath over 4500 rpms. My 99 FLHT had a similar setup and was a blast to ride with all kinds of midrange power!

PS ... I love the Street Glide, I had one on order until in found a FLHTCSE for a steal.
Good Luck

[HUBBARD]

I'll throw this out -

Based on your guidelines below (you didn't mention what kind of bike) -[highlight] I would consider[/highlight] a couple of things:

- First - decide how much you are willing to spend. This is important - many a build has come up short because of not budgeting enough money.
- Second - decide on what you will be spending the most of your time doing: cruising, touring, spirited riding or wanting to be "king of the hill".
- Third - consider FI - by the time you get a carb setup done a new performance build, the costs for carb vs.ECM/SW/tiuning are fairly close.
- Last - who's is available to do your work - Dealer or Indy, can they do all of the work or will they send part of it out? I say this because some shops don't do thier own machine work Builder vs the tuner on who goofed on what when your not happy.

As far as motors go, here is a basic rundown: These are estimates based on my experience. I estimated approx $500 in the 95" builds for labor and about $300 for tuning / parts on your existing carb. If you go FI or change carbs completely, then add about $300 to $400 for either a new ECM, SERT or Power Commander or a new Carb

95" build - no headwork           $2k        Good for cruizing, touring, riding two up - basically just plain
                                                 fun.
95" build w/ headwork             $3k to $5k   Same as above, but more spirited. Grin factor goes way up
                                                 with the right combination
103" build                               $4.5k to $7k  Good touring, cruizing. Can be a real hot street bike w/
                                                 right cams and headwork.
120" crate motor (motor only)  $10k This definitely get you in th e"king of the hill" territory.

As far as reliability, all the options can be very reliable if they are built correctly by a qulified mechanicusing quality parts. Once the new motor is in, there are "other" items that will need to be looked at: beefing up suspension, possibly better quality drive belt, the list goes on especially when dealing with the higher end 103" and 120" options. But you knew this when you bought the bike in the first place and had to add the second part.....

My .02
Jim

Sign in the shop reads: "speed is a question of money - how much you got??? That ain't enough"

Yeah, 'er 'uh, JimsSEEG,
  While you went above and beyond a "couple of things", you make a good point.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] If you want to be "JONES", you must pay up!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] The common law of business dictates, you can't pay a little, and get a lot!  Speed is not a question of money, it is the direct result of money. [smiley=yes.gif]  As my friend Don Tilley says, "Speed cost Money.  How fast do you want to go?"  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD  

[CVOandChop]

CVO... for starters, EFI is a HUGE advantage over carb, but consult your dealer about tuning as the 06 bike have the catalyst exhaust and EPA's fun robbing emissions. My suggestion is if you don't want to spend the dough for the 103 which is sort for a gas hoggin' slug in stock tune, go with a HTCC (non ported) and SE 211 head setup. Your big bore WG is probably around 80 horse and this will get you around 95 to 100 with good exhaust (ie Rinehart or Bassani duals). Keep in mind that you will need a 44mm CV or it won't have enough breath over 4500 rpms. My 99 FLHT had a similar setup and was a blast to ride with all kinds of midrange power!

PS ... I love the Street Glide, I had one on order until in found a FLHTCSE for a steal.
Good Luck

What huge advantage of EFI do you reference?

I am not a mechanic, but read a little.  From what I can understand, EFI has advantage of not needing choke/enricher on cold startups & running better at differing altitude.  Little less hassle.  Carb is easier to tune to the less experienced & seems to have more power, with the same basic parts as EFI.  I examining the HD Screaming Eagle parts catalogue & their suggested configurations, most bikes with same bore, headwork, etc., have 20rwhp advantage & 15-20 rwtq advantage with Carb over EFI.  This assumes a large bore carb (45) or 50mm throttle body.  Eg. 103CI with heads, Carb 120 hp, 115 Tq, EFI 100 tq, 95-100 hp

Anyway, I may be simplistic here.  Anyone in the know?

As has been said, it may come down to $$$ available.  

Thanks for the comments.


 [smiley=drink.gif]

[JimsSEEG]

There is one very major difference between EFI and Carb. There are three major areas of operation: idle/low speed, part throttle and Wide open. A carb can be tuned to tuned to run very well in one of these areas and tuned well in another - in other words a trade off of some in the air fuel ratio al all measured rpms EFI can be tuned as well as you can stand to afford and the profiency of the tuner, because of the multiple points that can be analyzed and changed on a very minute basis. This isn't a debate on whether carb or EFI is better, they each have thier place, and both will produce very comparable horsepower in the right hands.

You may want to take a look at some more research on carb vs EFI.  If there is that big of a difference betweein two identical bikes, then the EFI tuner didn't have a clue. Some of the sites that are getting very good results on EFI,  for example, and this is just one, World Class Tuning - owned by Doug Lofgren does the dyno tuning and testing for Mike Roland, who is the Head R&D man behind Kuryakin Wild Things performance products. Their HP and tq numbers are quite impressive. There is a long list of tuners that are running FI on top performing bikes. John Golden, long time dyno man tunes with Power commander and gets premium results - for a price. There are others that get these same results. Also check out the AMI dyno shootout sites, you might be surprised at the number of EFI bikes, that win a class.

Bottom line is if youreally want a carb, then go with it.

MHO,

Jim

[Big Time]

When you are dealing with real world V-twins (88-103") carbs are a "rob peter to pay paul" mentality. However with EFI you can rob peter to pay PETER. With the carb you have three chances to change the fuel delivery, low intermediate and high. With the EFI, a good tuner with a dyno can change ignition and fuel parameters about every 500 rpms. In the end the EFI bike will make the most out of what is has than the carb.

[DCFIREMANN]

y.  With the EFI, a good tuner aboutwith a dyno can change ignition and fuel parameters  every 500 rpms. In the end the EFI bike will make the most out of what is has than the carb.

That would be with a race tuner. If I have EFI (and I do) I am running a Zippers Thunder Max ECM over 1900 tuning points as compared to 147 of Harleys stock ECM with a RACE TUNER.

If you bike is EFI stay with it. If your bike has a Carb stay with it. I was under the imperssion that the street glide only came with EFI as does all other touring models(EXCEPT FLH STANDARDS). Please let us know if that is different.


Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Tonys]

That would be with a race tuner. If I have EFI (and I do) I am running a Zippers Thunder Max ECM over 1900 tuning points as compared to 147 of Harleys stock ECM with a RACE TUNER.

If you bike is EFI stay with it. If your bike has a Carb stay with it. I was under the imperssion that the street glide only came with EFI as does all other touring models. Please let us know if that is different.


Be Safe

THE DAWG

Street Glide comes either way...carb or EFI

[CVOandChop]

Street Glide comes either way...carb or EFI

I agree, available in both.  I am choosing Carb, because of lack of a good tuner.  You have to be able to make use of your local resources & There is not good tuner locally, but lots of Carb expertise.

 [smiley=drink.gif]

[Unbalanced]

chopt,

ok so I waited a while, but here is my take on this tire kicking:

is 115 torque / 112 horsepower enough.

If the answer is yes then stay with the 103 the machinist at Shanendoha Harley in NC gets 118/115 with only Harley Parts and a little machining.  That is if you must stay harley otherwise there are several outside vendors who can get you to that number in both a 95 kit or a 103 kit.    If the answer is no, then if you can afford it why wouldnt you go with a 120  

Branch, Zippers, Jim's, Rob Schopf (Hal's Harley), R&R, Cycle Rama, John Sachs, Short Block Charlie.

The decision really comes down to how much you wanna pay to play and just how hard do you want to play?

Remember if you go with a bigger motor / bottom end you also need a clutch to support it a heavy belt or chain and a fuel system whether it be efi or carb and you probably want to consider a timken bearing if you go from 88 to 103 what the hell they are already gonna split your cases anyhow.

Other choices are 106, 113, 116, 124 bottom ends

[syclone]

A Jims 120 can be had for around $7000.00 retail with a little shopping. Sell your brand new stock motor for $2500-3000 and the jims is suddenly down to $4500-4000. add $1200 for labor and $280 for a VPC clutch and you are between $6000-5500 plus a tune which should be easy as the Jims comes with a jetted carb and ignition map. For comparable money..always build or buy the bigger motor.

[CVOandChop]

Thanks for advice.  I have to order parts within the next month & am still weighing options.

If anyone else has an opinion, comment, advice or technical expertise, love to hear it.

 [smiley=drink.gif]

[HUBBARD]

Thanks for advice.  I have to order parts within the next month & am still weighing options.

If anyone else has an opinion, comment, advice or technical expertise, love to hear it.

 [smiley=drink.gif]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, CVOandChop,
  My opinions are probably different than yours, as you are goverened by the "Queen", and my comments are better kept to myself, but for advice, you're talkin' to the right man.  As for technical expertise, can't help you there, but I know someone that can.  However, back to advice, mine would be, go with Zipper's.  If you have decided to go to a 120" Motor, you have to split and punch the cases, anyway.  Zipper's Heads flow better than the HTCC.  Rivera clutch has been perfect in my set-up.  Again, if you're gonna' do it, do it right!  Don't walk over the dollars to pick up nickels.  Zipper's may be a little more expensive than what's been discussed here, but my Zipper's 120 EFI (54MM) will bust any Jim's 120" EFI, or Carb, anyday, anywhere, and that's a fact!  Later--HUBBARD