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[gordy]

With 1000 miles on the 09 SERG it is time to dyno tune it.  I installed 1 3/4 Fullsac baffles and for now just want to make sure it is rich enough, may install cams later.  This is the first time I have had a bike dyno'd but talking to the dealer, he tells me they install the SERT and tune it from there.  It seems to me that a "pull" should be made to establish a baseline and then tweak it.  What do other shops do?  Tks  Any bets on the reading? LOL

[Unbalanced]

Dyno should show you 86 - 90 hp and 108 to 110 torque happier dynos the numbers go up from there.

The dealer should be able to show you step tests to get flat lines from 2 - 30 percent throttle and sweep tests from 40 to 100 percent throttle for each cylinder as well as first pull ... to be compared to a last pull wide open throttle for final approval for overall gains.  You should get a 4th and a 5th gear pull in SAE with some smoothing and forced scale if it is a dyno jet.

If they can't show you reasonable flat runs from each cylinder tuning the VE's they haven't taken the time.   You should also compare the final map with the starting map looking at what timing changes were made and hopefully they should be all over the map and not just 90/100 percent throttle as well as what they are setting the closed loop bias tables to for your cruising area.

Hope you found a decent tuner at the dealer your looking at.  You should check out Doc1's post on questions to ask a dealer before getting them to tune your bike.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=25159.msg406911#msg406911

[ragrep]

Its customary to do a base run, so definitely make sure they do a base run so that you know what you started with.

As for using the dealer for your tuning- look around for a independent tuner- IME dealers wont take the time to thoroughly tune your bike- they'll do the basics and overcharge you for it.

As for a SERT-TTS-PC : I'd recommend runing with the PowerCommander-PC5- Ive seen them online for under $300- and they are much easier to tune the engine; in real time while the engine is loaded and running- and if you arent doing major mods in your engine- there is little need for the SERT; you would use only about 10% of what its designed for.

www.dynojet.com for a tuning center near you.

[grc]

While it's very possible that your dealer has an excellent tuner on staff, you may want to explore all your options before just going with the dealer because it's handy to do so.  Ask around in your area and see who folks recommend.

Yes, they should definitely do a baseline run before installing a SERT map.  And don't let them just take the cold bike and throw it on the dyno and do one pull as your baseline.  It needs to be at full operating temperature and then they need to do a few pulls.  If they don't want to do all of this and just jump right to the SERT map download and tuning, you need to definitely look for another tuner.  The guys taking all the shortcuts up front will most likely also shortcut your actual tune.  Less time on the tune equals more tunes per day equals more money in the tuner's pocket.  A thorough SERT tune is going to take a lot more than just an hour or two, it's more like four to six hours on average.

Jerry

[Unbalanced]

Its customary to do a base run, so definitely make sure they do a base run so that you know what you started with.

As for using the dealer for your tuning- look around for a independent tuner- IME dealers wont take the time to thoroughly tune your bike- they'll do the basics and overcharge you for it.

As for a SERT-TTS-PC : I'd recommend runing with the PowerCommander-PC5- Ive seen them online for under $300- and they are much easier to tune the engine; in real time while the engine is loaded and running- and if you arent doing major mods in your engine- there is little need for the SERT; you would use only about 10% of what its designed for.

www.dynojet.com for a tuning center near you.

Ragerep I have asked before and will ask again please backup the statements you are making about the 10 percent.   I know both products very well and you keep quoting this insane number and people read it yet it is untrue.   If you can't back it up maybe refrain from saying it.

[ragrep]

Unbalanced- insane number? -talk to an honest builder or tuner and you get that number in reference to what I was describing.

In percentages: The Race Tuner provides the following modes: Tuning mode & Data Mode, since you know the SSERT, you know that the Data mode represents a greater portion of the SSERT's functions. So would it be reasonable to say for that Tuning Mode represents 40% of the SSERT's function and the DATA mode represents 60%?  You can pretty much figure that few people will ever use or refer to the data mode. That takes away 60% right away- Then out of the remaining 40% of all the features available in the Tuning Mode how much is actually utilized when &  if the dealer properly tunes the engine with the basic mod's that most of the readers are doing?

I think I'm fairly accurate but if makes you feel better I'll say it this way- For "minor mods" meaning no major engine work: for example stage 1 mods like slip ons- baffle changes- air breathers; requiring fueling & minor timing adjustments - you're wasting your money with a (S)SERT as you will use a small portion of the capability that the tuner is designed for. Hows that?

Tell us what percentage of the (S)SERT would you say is used then? Lets be real about it, (S)SERT is, for a lot of the CVO forum readers, is wasted money. What percentage of owners on this forum will actually use the (S)SERT for its intended purpose or to its full potential?  How many owners here will modify their CVO bikes to track ready drag racing builds?  The (S)SERT is overkill- it's a finite device that permanently mates itself with the ECM- it cant be used on another bike, and the owner is generally  then married to the dealer for tuning and support, as fewer indy tuners have invested in the master program or training to properly tune a SERT. Not the best choice In My Opinion.


Then look at the MSRP cost:

1 the SERT- 459.95

2 the interface cable 39.95

3 the CD-ROM-24.95

4. The dyno tune- $350 avg at the dealership

[grc]

There are circumstances where it would be very nice to have the extra capabilities of the SERT or MasterTune, as in having the ability to customize things based on temperatures, MAP readings, etc.  While in many/most cases the Power Commander will provide all the functionality you need, in those other cases it will leave you unable to make the adjustments you want to make.  It all comes down to how much you want to spend for the added capabilities, and more importantly to the expertise of the person you've hired to tune your bike.  If the tuner is exceptional with a PC but only so-so with a SERT, I submit that you will probably be better served with the less capable PC.  So it all goes back to the basic advice most of us have been offering for years;  pick the tuner first and then let him help you pick the device.

Jerry

[ragrep]

GRC- well stated advice

[Unbalanced]

The 10 percent is what I had a problem with then you quoting a discounted price for a PC when you can get the SSert and the TTS for discounted prices as well.   Comparing apples and oranges doesnt make a comparison right.   Do I know an exact number of the percent used no and it depends person, the tuner tuner, but it is surely more than 10 percent and there are some functions the everyday joe isnt going to use, but a vast majority will be used such as

rev limit,
closed loop bias tables
VE's
Air Fuel
timing tables
deleanment and accel pump

Just because you can do more doesn't mean you have to do more.

But you can put it in basic mode and use it if you were so inclined its why it is there.   

These features are no different than what the power commander offers and then some as it should be for the native system in the ECM.    Tuning link is not a complete tune though and people shouldnt be fooled by that thinking that in 40 minutes you are getting a complete tune most of them only tune 1 cylinder and do very little for the timing.    Then on top of that you are putting an Alpha N system on top of a presurized manifold system.

We have dealers here who do a full tune for 200 - 250 and some more just depends.   On top of it if i roll in with a problem dealer elsewhere might not help me with a power commander.

Tell me how you going to tell me on a power commander where my spark knock is besides getting lucky and hearing it ?
How you going to get me home if the power commander chits the bed and the bike is way lean and shouldnt be ridden?

In end though as many of us have said over the years and recommended just like GRC did above again, it is best to follow the tuners advice that you have confidence in its just not quite how you originally painted it and that was what I have the most issue with.   Thanks for taking the time to clarify and reply back.

[gordy]

Thanks for the input and comments.  Will let you know the results Wednesday.

[geezerglide]

Gordy,

Who is doing your tuning & dyno.

Their is an excellent shop in Abbotsford run by Lee Uhrich, the shop is JARZ Performance and they have done a great job on three different engines I had them tune. I rode all the way from Calgary and back to have then do the tunes. They are great with the HD SERT, Power Commander and Direct Link, i know they will be better job than any of the dealers in Vancouver.

geezerglide

[gordy]

I was going to have Deeley's do the work.  Talked to a few people and they were okay with them.  I talked to JARZ at the Bike Show and they really had some attitude-don't know if it is a HA thing or what but I don't need that chit, I don't care how good they are.

[gordy]

Stupid me- please forgive/ignore my comment about the affiliation with Jarz performance and HA.  Fingers got in motion before head got in gear.

[Fullsac Performance]

Hey Gordy

I have a developed a TTS Mastertune fuel map for your 09 CVO with a non cat headpipe and hi flow cores.
I have over 6 hour of dyno time tweaking it to perfection. The throttle lag is removed. Rev limit increased to 6000.
If you have a lap top computer, retuning later for your cams can be accomplished at home with the V Tune feature.
The map is free with the purchase of a TTS software package form us. Its more cost effective than any option that involves dyno tuning.
TTS software allows full access to all you ECMs funtions. Comes with a complete tuning guide making it very user friendly.
Install it yourself at home, use the hundreds of dollars you will save to take your wife to a steak dinner and buy some more Harley stuff.
Contact me for more info.

Steve

www.fullsac.com

[geezerglide]

I was going to have Deeley's do the work.  Talked to a few people and they were okay with them.  I talked to JARZ at the Bike Show and they really had some attitude-don't know if it is a HA thing or what but I don't need that chit, I don't care how good they are.

Gordy,

I have known Lee for the past seven years, and every time I have spoken with him or met with him and his staff they have never displayed any attitude, especially HA Thing. Sure their may have sometimes been the occasional members at the shop, however you will see this this in most of the shops in Vancouver Independent of HD Dealers. He and his staff have always gone out of their way to be very helpful and professional with myself and anyone else I have had in their shop.

As an aside, do you know his shop does most of the repairs to the RCMP and Richmond City Police motorcycles.

geezerglide