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Author Topic: Fuel management?  (Read 3082 times)

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desant89

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Fuel management?
« on: July 08, 2009, 06:33:47 PM »

What kind of Fuel management system are most of you using for the 09 SERG?  I know I want one, but not sure which to get....SERT, PCV etc....
All I plan on doing is Rush Slip-ons (already on), removing my cat, Possibly a filter...I will never do engine mods or anything like that.  Thanks!
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GregKhougaz

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 06:46:55 PM »

Greeting and welcome, Desant89.  Feel free to introduce yourself in the New Member Introduction board. 

There are several threads on this issue but here is a good one to start your reading:

09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
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Highwaystar

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 06:53:35 PM »

http://www.head-quarters.com/injection.html We have several bikes running excellent with the fulsac 2 1/4 baffles and no cat. The HD race tuner is not needed. The self tune works perfect with no dyno time needed.  :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:   
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HWStar - Pro Charger; 153 hp 136 ft lbs, Jackpot header, 2-1/4 Fullsac's, TTS and PC-V with auto-tune, Dynojet Quick shifter, Xenon HI/low.

infanterene

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2009, 11:33:58 AM »

I have gutted my cat/fullsac baffles and am very happy with my PCV. Very easy to install and use. I downloaded a program from the library here and the bike runs great.
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DW6019

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2009, 11:43:15 AM »

Still can't believe anyone can justify a thousand dollars for a tuner system. This is just overkill. The A/F just will not change due to normal riding once set by any of the other tuners enough to warrant the HQ unit. But to each his own. You keep saying you don't need Race Tuner, TTS or any starting MAP but even Headquarters says it is mandatory.
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Highwaystar

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2009, 01:21:33 PM »

Do your home work before you speak out. NO other tuner is required (sales info needs to spell that out clearer) with the Head Quarters Pro Tuner. It monitors A/F fuel ratio 500 times per second. A recent comment from Terry Flynn at Appleton HD: quote: "Dan,s 09 SERG with the HQ pro tuner is the best tuned bike I have ridden in over five years". He ordered several more kits after the ride. Changing cams and throttle body... sure get it closer with race tuner first. But let it be clear that it is less than $500, and no race tuner is required (but you can). HQ changes the system to full time closed loop that tunes to performance changes, weather and load...welcome to the 21st century....down loaded maps don't adjust. :drink:
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 01:31:23 PM by Highwaystar »
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DW6019

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2009, 01:51:25 PM »

I probably have more experience with maps than you, and only a moron would think a map would adjust anything on its own, BUT HQ says you need a Race Tuner to start, You say no. Who would most people believe?
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grc

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2009, 03:11:35 PM »


Maps don't change by themselves, but properly designed ECM's do adjust to changing conditions.  The adjustments come from lookup tables that correlate to changes signalled by the sensors, such as MAP (manifold absolute pressure), intake air temp, cylinder head temp, throttle position, rpm, etc.  When it's done right in the original programming, the stock ECM will correct quite handily for changes in operating parameters such as load, altitude, air temp, etc., without the help of add-on devices.

I have yet to see, with the scant info the HQ folks give you, how this system by itself converts the stock narrow band closed loop system to a full time wide band system.  The changeover from closed loop to open loop operation is controlled by the stock ECM, which this system doesn't eliminate or replace.  I also don't see any information about how you go about changing the AFR settings if you don't like what the HQ folks decided you should have.  Does this device have it's own internal map that you can modify, or is it like some so-called tuners that leave you stuck with what someone else claims is best?  I've seen some of those, and they go from the BS units that run stock 14.7 AFR in closed loop and a one-size-fits-all 13.5 in open loop, to the ones that make no attempt at remaining legal and just pump lots of extra fuel all the time.  What this system really looks like, physically at least, is the separate Auto Tune module that Zipper's sells to make their ThunderMax replacement ECM into a wide band system.  That one only works with the aftermarket ECM, and not at all with the stock ECM.  What's supposedly different with the HQ version? 

Here's a suggestion to pass along to those folks at HQ; do like many others who sell this kind of equipment, post a full description of just exactly what this thing does (and what it doesn't do), along with downloadable instructions for installation and use.  With that kind of information a person could possibly make an informed decision.  Of course, my take on any of this sort of thing is that those who don't want to share information, or who just want me to "trust them", really don't want my business and they really won't get it.  I don't trust people who want to sell me a $500 device with no real information, no questions asked and none answered.  I stopped believing in the tooth fairy and the something for nothing deal a very long time ago.

BTW, the HQ web site leaves most everything to the imagination and very little actually spelled out, but if you read through the description it does seem to imply that you don't really have to use a SERT or other device unless you need to change timing.  On a stock bike maybe.  On a modified bike, no way Jose'.  The base map needs to be reasonably close, even with so-called auto tune devices.  Just ask the guys who bought and then tossed the Zipper's ThunderMax with Auto Tune how well it worked without a very good base map.

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Highjagger

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2009, 03:24:53 PM »

That was exactly my problem when i checked this HQ- product , not enough information and secrets behind curtains , that`s really not the way that makes me getting trusty , on my last bike , Fatboy i used the Thundermax autotune , was good for me because i had no specialist for dyno runs and have had no will to spend a lot of bucks for them , TM plug and play was ok and the bike was running very good in my opinion , but this HQ-thing isn`t very clear to me ( but i am just a silly poor boy ) .
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Highwaystar

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2009, 04:48:08 PM »

Negative comments from riders that have not made the purchase is expected. I did the same thing and asked the same questions. Bottom line is It works better than any tuning method I have ever tried. In fact it is perfect. Perfect warm up,perfect off throttle ,perfect mid range,perfect pull, perfect up top and no down shift popping. I was so skeptical I made the dealer promise to buy it back if it did not work. I can tell you I ran 100 miles at 80 plus and oil temp only hit 216 and cooled to 206 at the next stop in town. Since installation The bike has never gone into parade mode at idle...ever, not even at 90F. This bike will fuel at less than 1800 rpm in 6th gear If I want. I only hope SERG owners will hear this information and take advantage of a great alternative to down loads and dyno runs. It really works fantastic. Quote from the dealer:"this is the best running Harley Davidson we have seen in over 5 years of tuning". The SERG with no mechanical mods does not need the race tuner, It will run spot on perfect. The only problem would be the unclear connection with race tuner and when it is needed and not.  :drink:  
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 04:59:19 PM by Highwaystar »
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Twolanerider

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2009, 05:11:57 PM »


Negative comments from riders that have not made the purchase is expected. I did the same thing and asked the same questions. Bottom line is It works better than any tuning method I have ever tried. In fact it is perfect. Perfect warm up,perfect off throttle ,perfect mid range,perfect pull, perfect up top and no down shift popping. I was so skeptical I made the dealer promise to buy it back if it did not work.


It's good to read of more and more positive experiences with "self-tuning" devices or other tools intended to allow a rider to make his bike run well without having to take it in somewhere.  Wasn't that long ago that all such packages were either miminalized (at best), too difficult for most to get regular use out of or just didn't work well.  Glad you're reporting another effective device.

The descriptions the vendors are offering for several of the current generation of this kind of hardware are often very similar.  Have to wonder if that's just form following function and that they accomplish much the same task so they get much the description, or if there is an shared OE platform that several different after-marketers are branding and tweaking as their own :nixweiss: ?
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desant89

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2009, 11:54:47 PM »

Ok, so now I have no clue what I should get.  Is the SERT the common answer.  I did read all the other links about HP numbers, and seen what some people have.  I am looking for the best method for what i have.  Rush Slip ons, No Cat (soon).  Is it worth doing anything at all with a tuner for those mods?
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LarryB

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2009, 08:21:39 AM »

Desant, the money you spent on the rush you could have done the cat remove and fullsac baffles and gotten a great sound, the fuel management system is big as there are many options. PC & Fuelpak are merely tricks for the system to run better. I have used both on some of my previous bikes, the SERT brings into play some warrantee issues as it leaves a footprint on your ECM. My experience with thundermax and HQ is not favorable as friends of mine who have used them have gotten rid of them for other systems. the TM has actually been known to untune. HQ is better of the two. my choice is the TTS as long as you use the V-Tune process, the stock maps are a good start but what works good in Cali, won't work as well in NY, atmosphere/temps/altitude all play into this, thats why the V-tune works well as it will be specific to your bike and your style of riding.
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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2009, 09:24:16 AM »

And the area where you tune it ?
 That would mean that your bike would run worse when you ride away from home and there are changes in temperature or air humidity ?
I wonder , because there is allways said that the best thing is to burn the fuel is the 14.7 to 1 ( AFR ) , this means optimum on burning .
Why then , the engine has more power when the ratio is 13 to 1 ?
More fuel , less air but better power with worse burning ?
I do not check this .
 I should think about studying motor-mechanic and engine-electric .
Perhaps there is a free stipendium at a university for me to bring me these things nearer to my brain . ::)
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desant89

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Re: Fuel management?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2009, 02:09:29 PM »

Ok, so if I order the TTS, and USB is it really difficult to use the V-Tune?  I am very Computer literate, but do not know much about fuel/air ratios etc.  I have installed a few Power Commanders, but of course it is easy to just load a map.  Can anyone help?  I would like to order the TTS, but want to make sure I dont find myself stuck.  Thanks!
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