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Author Topic: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!  (Read 6491 times)

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spydglide

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2009, 06:10:28 PM »

Appreciate that Hoist but it doesn't keep me from wanting to learn how to ride more effectively. The request remains - what is effective throttle control?
smoothly.  (you can be fast & smooth at the same time)   :bananarock: :drink: har!  spyder
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Hoist!

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2009, 06:12:14 PM »

Appreciate that Hoist but it doesn't keep me from wanting to learn how to ride more effectively. The request remains - what is effective throttle control?

He means keep it WFO and hold on!!! ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)

Hoist! :coolblue:
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hogasm

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2009, 07:24:26 PM »

Had a very informative conversation today with a MOCO engineer....... crank issues began to escalate when the MOCO removed the timken bearing. One problem with the absence of the timken is negative torque applied to the crank when the rear brake is applied and the clutch is not engaged. Many riders take it easy on their equipment and one thing is to brake and when the bike starts to shudder, the clutch is then engaged....this could give the MOCO a way out of warranty issues...

Another issue with the new cranks is that where the crank is internally threaded on the cam side....is this perfectly centered in the end of the crank. Because of the removal of the timken,If the internal threads are not perfectly centered then a vibration is transferred to the left side of the crank, which the timken help to absorb, and increases issues with the compensator.
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spydglide

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2009, 07:43:59 PM »

Had a very informative conversation today with a MOCO engineer....... crank issues began to escalate when the MOCO removed the timken bearing. One problem with the absence of the timken is negative torque applied to the crank when the rear brake is applied and the clutch is not engaged. Many riders take it easy on their equipment and one thing is to brake and when the bike starts to shudder, the clutch is then engaged....this could give the MOCO a way out of warranty issues...

Another issue with the new cranks is that where the crank is internally threaded on the cam side....is this perfectly centered in the end of the crank. Because of the removal of the timken,If the internal threads are not perfectly centered then a vibration is transferred to the left side of the crank, which the timken help to absorb, and increases issues with the compensator.
Bean Counters trying to make the stock holders happy w/ quarterly profits......they keep doing this...... and with bearings more often than not.  grrr.  spyder
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djkak

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2009, 09:13:04 PM »

For the neophytes among us (no offense taken, just a statement of fact), what are the aspects of effective throttle control? When I get to New York and find myself on one of Hoist's highly modified steeds, I don't want to be responsible for trashing the powertrain.

It’s about engine RPM and load (throttle setting). The greatest risk is at low engine RPM which require a light touch and a much greater sensitivity to load.

The concept is simply not to overload the engine. Developing a “feel” for this is not difficult; awareness is the key. I like Hoist’s 2,500 RPM limit where nothing aggressive happens below this speed. I observe this if I’m watching a tach; otherwise I simply maintain a “free spinning” engine.

People can get in trouble with a machine like Cybil because she will pull down to a low RPM without protesting. The unaware rider may enjoy pulling her down in a tall gear because she makes a “cool” sound.

The other thing about Cybil is that she likes it “au naturel” and without protection. Hanging her business out there without an IDS or high capacity compensator means that throttle control becomes a much more critical issue. It takes just one temporary loss of muscular coordination and Hoist’s baby has a….well you get the idea.  :2vrolijk_21:
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djkak

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2009, 10:33:08 PM »

Had a very informative conversation today with a MOCO engineer....... crank issues began to escalate when the MOCO removed the timken bearing. One problem with the absence of the timken is negative torque applied to the crank when the rear brake is applied and the clutch is not engaged. Many riders take it easy on their equipment and one thing is to brake and when the bike starts to shudder, the clutch is then engaged....this could give the MOCO a way out of warranty issues...

Another issue with the new cranks is that where the crank is internally threaded on the cam side....is this perfectly centered in the end of the crank. Because of the removal of the timken,If the internal threads are not perfectly centered then a vibration is transferred to the left side of the crank, which the timken help to absorb, and increases issues with the compensator.

The Timken bearing is a tough setup and will tolerate off axis rotation (wobble) of the sprocket shaft for an indefinite period. It is very rare to see one of these bearings fail. Having said this, I believe that some of the Engineer’s remarks may have been lost in the translation.

The Timken left main was used with the bolt together crankshaft from 1955 through the last EVO built in 2000. Pulling an early machine down and finding a shifted set of wheels was not at all uncommon. It was also not unheard of to see flywheels shifted to the point where they actually made contact with the oil scraper in the crankcase.

The difference between the early machines and the Twin Cam is that the early BT engines would run indefinitely with a set of shifted flywheels; the Twin Cam will not. The early oil pump setup was unaffected and the cam and pinion gears would run indefinitely before failing. A shifted set of wheels in a Twin Cam will quickly destroy the oil pump and left main roller bearing on 2003 and later machines.

The point is that the Timken left main didn’t prevent flywheel shift in the early machines and it doesn’t make sense that it would in the Twin Cam. Consider that a flywheel shift occurs when either the left or right flywheel continues rotating after the other has slowed or stopped.

I can see how a basis for this argument could be formed. Conceptually the Timken bearing provides greater off axis support of the sprocket shaft which moves off axis when a flywheel shift occurs. Stir in left and right main bearing clearance, crankshaft and crankcase flex, plus 45 years of practical application and there is no useful support for a claim that the Timken left main will prevent a flywheel shift.

JMHO
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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2009, 11:00:01 PM »

Thanks dj for the info on throttle control. For the uninitiated that is very helpful. Always believed there was a difference between ignorance and stupidity. One is forgivable in certain circumstances.

One of the reasons I so much enjoy this community is the opportunity for accelerated (so to speak) learning.
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Hoist!

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2009, 05:15:34 PM »

As always, EXCELLENT resonses dj! I completely agree with your assessment on throttle control. I've practiced that all my life basically. It's how I ride and drive ALL my vehicles. You definitely don't need a tach to ride these things and shift properly. It doesn't take much to get the 'feel" of the bike and it's throttle response. You should never lug ANY engine! But ya got me nervous now, and I'm thinking of putting that SE Comp, and that IDS (that's been in the original box for ever a year now) on Cybil for peace of mind! :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: ;)


















But if them rubbers explode on that IDS, I'm comin after you!!! :P ;D ;D ;D

Hoist! :coolblue:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 07:01:38 PM by Hoist! »
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spydglide

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2009, 05:23:09 PM »

:nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: ;)


















But if them rubbers explode , I'm comin after you!!! :P ;D ;D ;D

Hoist! :coolblue:
:oops: :o :'( :drink:har.  spyder
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Hoist!

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2009, 07:02:44 PM »

:oops: :o :'( :drink:har.  spyder

Oops, sorry spyd! I did that in my outside voice! It was supposed to be in my inside voice! (40 point vs 4 point) I fixed it! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hoist! :coolblue:
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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2009, 08:21:05 PM »

So since my inner primary bearing and others are being replaced along with comp assembly. Using the baker bearing this time. But now am concerned about the comp assembly knowing the old version is having problems and the new version is also failing which should I use this time?
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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2009, 10:00:57 PM »

So since my inner primary bearing and others are being replaced along with comp assembly. Using the baker bearing this time. But now am concerned about the comp assembly knowing the old version is having problems and the new version is also failing which should I use this time?

My opinion is to use the new one. It is a much better setup than the stock unit. 8)

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2009, 10:06:11 PM »

Thanks Jim
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hd-dude

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Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2009, 10:17:54 PM »

Thanks Jim

Your welcome Terry, just make sure they read the instructions..... :huepfenlol2:

Hoist!

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    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: WTF Caused This Failure?!!!
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2009, 10:44:57 PM »

Your welcome Terry, just make sure they read the instructions..... :huepfenlol2:

Thanks Jim! :P ;D ;)

Hoist! :coolblue:
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