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[CVO MIKE]

Which is better for 2010 fatbob ? I am installing vance & hines big shots with big city thunder baffels .In the future maybe new cams head work and pistons .Probably not for a year or two though.

[Texas 103]

Which is better for 2010 fatbob ? I am installing vance & hines big shots with big city thunder baffels .In the future maybe new cams head work and pistons .Probably not for a year or two though.

I'll always go with the SE tuner...Nothing additional to add to the bike to mess up, better tune, if you ever have an issue on the road and take it in to a dealer SOME dealers won't even look at it or worse automatically blame it on the PC ....

[Diamondback]

 

 I agree there advantages to the SERT from the dealer's but lot's of dealer's won't touch a SERT bike either (mine included) because it requires a Dyno to get it right.

As an engineer for many years, I like the closed loop Wideband solution and have nothing but excellent success with the results.  One more thing about having issues with the PC V with Autotune, if the PC V acts up for any reason, remove it from the loop and the original HD system is now in place and you can easily get the bike home (although it runs in the 12.5 AFR range all of the time).  The HD system will think the sensors are bad and will automatically go into the open loop 12.5 AFR range all of the time.  The bike will run very rich bit will get you home so you can get it fixed.

Plus, I have never heard of a problem with the PC III PC IV failing.

Wideband closed loop allows for the fuel management system to adjust for air temp, bike temp, air density (high altitude), gas variations etc.  Over forty thousand miles on two separate bikes with no issues.  Why have a NB solution if you are going to override the AFR settings all of the time with a tune?

Just go back to open loop (this is what most of my buddies do with the Mastertune and SERT).

Too many options. 

 

 

[Twolanerider]

This has  been said before.   But, in the final analysis, do you really care which device you use.  You're paying someone else to use it for you after all.  Find the best tuner in your area and ask him which he can do the best job  with. That's the one you want.

[Diamondback]

 

 

[sportygordy]

This has  been said before.   But, in the final analysis, do you really care which device you use.  You're paying someone else to use it for you after all.  Find the best tuner in your area and ask him which he can do the best job  with. That's the one you want.

You nailed it... Ain't no better way... SERT and a good tune and your off an running   

[HD Street Performance]

Why have a NB solution

Because it works and requires no added electronic equipment in the line of the ECU
When tuned right using TTS or the SEST the NB senseors can actually be eliminated and the AFR values set to whatever you want in the program and because the AFRs / VEs are corrected the coresponding AFR will be the actual with no sensors in the mix. The software can be toggled into an open loop. The barometric, air temp, TPS and MAP sensors still function and provide accurate corrections based on algoriths in the program to adjust for conditions. Either the NB or the WB sensors used by the aftermarket are unreliable in this heat and vibration scenario. Why do you think the factory went to Lambdas on the FL models? They will be on everything soon, I predict

[Diamondback]

 

Interesting, haven't heard of any issues with the WB sensors.

I would be the primary reason HD went to the smaller and new location is to help with EPA.  The location right next to the cat is in fact hotter than the previous location.  Especially if you are not runnig the AFR at 14.7.  NB sensors keep the cruising AFR at 14.7 ( or close).

A good tune is a great solution but it can not account for variations in gas etc.  The algorithms although good can not be any better than measuring the actual output of the exhaust and correcting for the many variations. 

And yes, the SERT or TTS is just overriding the NB sensors.  Plus the sensors on the 09's were Bosch.  So if we are not using them, then why does it matter if they are reliable.

End the end, if the NB solution is the best overall, then why do so many CVO's eliminate the NB with either the TTS, SERT, PC V or Fuel Pak.

Seems that the end objective is to get the bike to run like it should and not fry you in the process.

IMHO.

[LarryB]

he said it was a 2010, Lamda correct.

[Diamondback]

Yes he said the Bosch Lambda's series of O2 sensors.

Had lunch with one of my riding buddies (he ride over 35,000 per year and has an 09 SERG and a 2010 that he is customizing for a hot rod 103, cams and etc.  He just got back this week from FullSac and had his cat removed, the 2" Fullsac's installed, MasterTune TTS and a complete Dyno from Steve () at FullSac.  The NB's are no longer active as the cruising AFR is 13.7.

BTW, he said it's the best solution he has ever had, and he has tried almost all of them (except not the PC V with Autotune).

Better than the SERT by far.

 

[LarryB]

that's the best setup so far.

[HD Street Performance]

Diamondback
I disagree with a few items you mentioned. Understand it is not personal and with supporting data from technical sources I may be found to be wrong but I offer counterpoints

Interesting, haven't heard of any issues with the WB sensors.

They fail and no doubt because they are in the hotest part of the exhaust stream right outside the port. Only hotter place is in the port or in the burn. They are off the shelf cheap heated sensors made for after cat use. It is much cooler there. Read the Bosch technical papers on the sensors. Good true wide bands made by Bosch cost in excess of $200 ea, these $50. I don't want to present an "either or" arguement either, the MOCO narrow band switching unit has a history of issues failing too. They have been revised at least once.

I would be the primary reason HD went to the smaller and new location is to help with EPA.  The location right next to the cat is in fact hotter than the previous location.  Especially if you are not runnig the AFR at 14.7.  NB sensors keep the cruising AFR at 14.7 ( or close).

AFR can be set to anything you want after the VEs are corrected and any part of the fuel curve can be left in closed loop or put in open loop. 14.7 works well at light cruise and yields good economy. The whole target cruise number can be dealt with using the Closed Loop Bias numbers and the 14.7 average target lowered to 14.2. Fuel blend variances can be dealt with by Adaptive Fuel Values which are adjusted if those NBs see a trend of consistant lean or rich running and can compensate for highly oxegenated or alcohol fuel. Similar scheme to the early Delphi on GM cars and BLM numbers. This is not the end all save all and only has a range of + or - 10% but in terms of fuel content that is enough to cover the gamut IMO at least today.

A good tune is a great solution but it can not account for variations in gas etc.  See Above The algorithms although good can not be any better than measuring the actual output of the exhaust and correcting for the many variations.  Read Delphi white papers on "Adaptive Fuel Value" One excerpt from a training manual

"...system has the ability to “learn” the engine fuel mixture needs. When the motorcycle is running in the closed loop mode and operated in a specific engine speed and load range, the system will compare the feedback from the O2 sensor to the base programming stored in the ECM. If a difference in these values is detected, the ECM will recalibrate the system program to compensate. This correction is termed the adaptive fuel value or AFV."

And yes, the SERT or TTS is just overriding the NB sensors.  Plus the sensors on the 09's were Bosch.  So if we are not using them, then why does it matter if they are reliable.

They are all made by Bosch all years and they have a function especially as it relates to AFV and in conjunction with the TTS and V-Tune function. Once the VEs are correected then the owner can choose to turn them off or run a part or all the closed loop range as designed.
End the end, if the NB solution is the best overall, then why do so many CVO's eliminate the NB with either the TTS, SERT, PC V or Fuel Pak.

Seems that the end objective is to get the bike to run like it should and not fry you in the process.

Set the CLB to 798 across the board and it won't.

Parting shot
The Delphi system is robust and adapts to very out of spec builds when the owner takes the time and spends the money to get it tuned. This provides the best result at this time
I would trust somebody like FullSack that has a product of both software and hardware and has tested the parts as a package.
On the 10 specifically I would be very cautious with parts substitutions right now. In time the aftermarket will catch up.
IMHO.

[Diamondback]

 

I agree with the "be carefull with the 10's".  Way to new to be messing around.  Even Steve at Fullsac was cautious but the removal of the cat, a stage 1 ac, his 2" baffles and the mastertune TTS but removed the NB sensors from the MAP.  I guess the question is why do most of the tuners turn off the NB sensors and run at 13.7.   The NB can only adjust within there specified range which is 14.2 to 14.7.  This range for an air cooled engine runs very lean and thus very hot.  I understand that HD must meet EPA requirements and thus the need to be restrictive on the AFR (and thus the NB Sensors).  The Lambda's have been out for many years, does this mean HD didn't test the old sensors and location and move them years ago or is there some other reason.

Most car engine closed loops systems meassure before the cat and after to understand how well the cat is working.  As you obviously know cat's need to be very hot to work as designed.  On a car that is running lean, the watercooling and fans resolve several issues.

The Delphi is a robust system and given it's constraints does an adequate job.  Even the 2010 96 touring models are very hot with the new cat installed.   Why not then use a true closed loop system with the WB sensors adjusting the entire map full throttle, partial or light throttle.  Only logical answer is that HD needs the bike to run extremely lean from the factory.

My personal experience with the WB sensors from Thunder Max on my 07 and the PC V with autotune on my 2009, is the bike has substantial increase in HP and torque, runs much cooler and gets no worse (and in the case of the 09 better than the stock).  Throttle response is much better.  Just seems like the NB sensors are a HD requirements to meet EPA and no more.

Interesting views.  I haven't had very good expereince with the stock HD configuration (on SE 110's) and spent about a thousand both times to get the bike to run like I wanted.

Nice talking to you.

Enlightening.

 

 

[HD Street Performance]

tuners turn off the NB sensors and run at 13.7

I know Steve does this but heck he is in the hottest place on earth practically, Lake Havasu for cripes sake.
Most run the closed loop in the designated area and just richen the CLB. It works and they run cooler plus still get great mileage. The higher compression motors new set of rules and at lesser throttle / MAP load lots of tuners dial in the AFR desired.
I prefer speed density as opposed to Alpha-N and on lower compression builds they are about equal but when the compression rises the MAP timing scheme. Data aquisition from the DELPHI ion sensing circuit is a wonderful help at programming a timing curve that keeps good throttle response, low map added timing for mileage, and drops timing when needed to prevent pinging.

HD has to meet both tailpipe values and longevity tests and has been known to field test on limited model selections IE 06 Dyna. I suspect / speculate the Lambdas are just that and also there is the added benefit (to them) of screwing with the aftermarket which they have been known to do. A win for everyone, woopsy forgot the customer, oh yeah

[Diamondback]

 

Amen brother, here in South Texas where we just expereinced the hottest summer on record (59 day over 100, previous was 39) the stock 110's with 93 octane will ping when it's over 100 pretty regular.

The tuners reduce the light throttle to cruising AFR to about 13.8.  I rode my 09 for almost 2000 miles before I removed the Cat (at Fullsac's recommendation as well as others), installed a Stage I, Rinehart slipons (which came on the bike from the dealer) and the PC V with autotune.  The best gas mileage from pre mod's was 42 and the average was under 39 not matter how I rode it.  With two up, it was 36.

Post mod's, I average over 41 two up and about 40 as a single (I like to twist the throttle).  The bike runs cooler ( a lot cooler and no pinging) and increased the HP by over 12 and the torque about 14.  Jamie at fuel Moto set the base map and I have not had to do anything to the map (let the autotune work).  My 09 will outrun any of the SEUC's in the area that haven't gone wild with new cam's, heads etc.

I ride to Colorado every year into the mountains in July, temp's when I leave are 100 plus and within two days are in the 30's in the mornings at 10,000 plus feet.  Both of my SEUC's (until the mod's) did not like the extreme variations.  After the mod's, absolutely no issues.  One of my buddies has a 09 SEUC Cowboy Blue and Silver, borrowed my bike for 50 miles andgot to Texas and spent the $1000 for pipes, Stage I ac, non-cat header and he went with the Mastertune TTS and has no issues.

I think you are right that HD tries to make it more difficult for the aftermarket guys to adapt to the changes.  The last I heard, ThunderMax had still not released a fly by wire system for the 09's.

Ride often and ride safe.

Got mine where I like it.  No changes in over 6,000 miles.  At least to the engine.