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[Heatwave]

Here's the situation. I have a 2010 110 engine (SE Ultra). I had the following build assembled by my local dealer. By using the dealer, he's covering the build under my extended service plan:

•   Heads worked by Hillside Cycle http://www.hillsidecycle.com/
•   SE 58mm tbw Trottle Body
•   Woods 408-6 cams
•   Ventilator Air cleaner
•   SE roller rockers
•   Adj pushrods
•   5.3 gm/sec injectors
•   Stock exhaust header with cat removed by Fullsacs http://www.fullsac.com/
•   Stock CVO mufflers with stock baffle replaced with 2.25" Fullsac performance baffles
•   Harley Pro Tuner

Before the work was done, my stock engine was 77hp and 100 ft/lbs.  
 
Next the dealer used the 2010 Harley Race Tuner to dyno tune the bike with the new build. They definitely struggled. Anyone planning to use the new 2010 Race Tuner with Smart Tune should be prepared. The tuning tables have changed dramatically from 2009 since you can no longer tune the engine using VE tables that allow for adjustment using Throttle position and RPMs. The new software is limited to using manifold pressure versus RPMs. And there just aren't enough increments in the available KPA tables.
 
What this means is that for larger flow engine builds the Harley Race Tuner is a PIA and may never be able to fully tune the bike. The new software is changed to accomodate the cats in the exhaust which no longer make it possible to accurately use an exhaust sniffer when dyno tuning.
 
The dealer even got the Harley engineers involved to assist in the tuning. At first the bike was running hp and Tq #s around 119/119. But they just couldn't get the low end to run smoothly. After help from the Harley engineers, they were able to generate 114hp/114Tq. This was a big jump in performance over stock since it added 37 hp and 14 ft/lbs. The before and after dyno is shown below:
  
However after taking the bike out for a several hundred mile ride, it just was not right down low, too much stumbling between 1000 and 2700 rpms which is the last place you need stumbling when slowly negotiating parking lots etc.
 
They took the bike back and spent many more hours on the dyno with Harley assisting by phone. After multiple dyno tuning sessions, they got the bike to run smoothly throughout all rpms ranges, but they had to sacrifice performance even further. Now they are down to 108 hp and 109 ft lbs. The throttle does function much more smoothly however you can definitely tell higher rpm performance was sacrificed to get there. The dyno of this most recent dyno tuning is in the next post:
  
The dealer is still not satisified and in fact is sending 2 techs to Harley Race Tuning training in Jan. He's committed to retuning the bike again after they return from training. The Dealer believes they left alot of performance on the table but wanted to make sure the bike was fun to ride between now and when they tune again after training.
 
Do the experts out there think my exhaust is the issue, the tuner or some combination? Scott at Hillside is confident this build should be close to or over 120hp. So do several other tuners I've spoken to that are recommending moving to Pro-Commander or MasterTune. I've already spent the money on the Race Tuner and I would be concerned to add a 3rd party into the build at this point, should I have a problem down the road. Right now I'm thinking its best to wait until the dealer's techs go to training and attempt to retune during the winter months.
 
Looking forward to thoughts from others on best approaches from here to get the performance this build was designed to deliver.

[Heatwave]

Here's the graph of the most current dyno tuning effort on my 2010 110 engine build

[jfh]

You should be able to keep the 119/119 and get the low end sorted with the tuner. Don't worry about your exhaust until the build has been properly tuned. MAP tuning should be a benefit over throttle kPa.

Since you have already invested in the SE Pro Tuner, try to find someone who knows how to use it. Your dealer techs will be trained at the entry-level when they return from school. Is that who you want tuning your bike?

I switched from SE Pro Tuner to TTS and despite the additional expense, I am glad that I did.

[Heatwave]

You should get much better performance from your build.  Don't worry about your exhaust until the build has been properly tuned.  

Since you have already invested in the SE Pro Tuner, find someone who knows how to use it. Your dealer techs will be trained at the entry-level when they return from school. Is that who you want tuning your bike?

To be fair, it's worth noting the Dealer's techs have been tuning with the RaceTuner for the past 6 years. They're not new to the software and they're going back to Harley school because of all the changes to the 2010 software.

I think it's also fair to say, that all the guy's that think they're experts on the RaceTuner, may find themselves starting all over again with the 2010 version of the Super Tuner. I absolutely want someone experienced in tuning with the 2010 SuperTuner and would welcome any and all recommended experts on the Pro-SuperTuner within 3 hrs of North Jersey.

Feel free to make a recommendation and I'll definitely follow-up with that tuner.

[jfh]

To be fair, it's worth noting they have been tuning with the race tuner for the past 6 years. They're not new to the software and they're going back to Harley school because of all the changes to the 2010 software.

I think it's also fair to say, that all the guy's you think are experts on the race tuner, may find themselves starting all over again with the 2010 version of the Super Tuner. Those techs that were experts on the RaceTuner are about to find out they no longer are experts on the Pro SuperTuner. I absolutely want someone experienced in tuning with the 2010 SuperTuner and would welcome any and all recommended experts on the Pro-SuperTuner within 3 hrs of North Jersey.

Feel free to make a recommendation and I'll definitely follow-up with that tuner.

Perhaps I was a bit hasty in my assessment of your dealer techs, I don't know them or how capable they might be. It has been my experience that skilled tuners are few and far between, perhaps you are one of the lucky ones to find a local dealer with such skill.

I do agree that the changes to the 2010 tuning procedures will remain a challenge until tuners have had time to learn the new system. I hope it works out for you.

That's another reason I prefer TTS, the developer, Steve Cole, is accessible via email for tech support. Not gonna get that from the MoCo.

[HD Street Performance]

Have you considered Joes?
Hillside is close with them I am sure they can help you. Joe is a good tuner, the charts he produces oh well who cares if the bike runs good
In the 08 and 09 FBW bikes a stumble like that was fixed by changing the accel enleanment and the throttle speed <3,000 rpm.

[Heatwave]

Have you considered Joes?
Hillside is close with them I am sure they can help you. Joe is a good tuner, the charts he produces oh well who cares if the bike runs good
In the 08 and 09 FBW bikes a stumble like that was fixed by changing the accel enleanment and the throttle speed <3,000 rpm.

I've actually spent a fair amount of time talking with Joe. He's a really knowledgable guy but he's a pretty far distance from me. Not out of the question but I'd want to use all my options closer if possible.

On a separate note I made some great progress on the tuning by myself. I'm actually rather shocked at how much improvement I've been able to make on my own. I don't have any numbers to share yet but I can tell you the performance is dramatically improved. The bike went from being very fast to shocking quick. It actually surprised me when I hit the throttle.

I figured the techs just weren't spending enough time on spark advance. Since I had the SuperTuner, cables and training program, I figured I'd take a closer look at what they were doing. I was familiar with the old race tuner as I did tweaking on my Fatboy. As it turns out, the dealer's techs just kept adjusting the VE tables without modifying the spark advance tables.

I compared the spark advance tables for the 113 High Output map that Harley provides with the SuperTuner to the spark advances tables on my bike (modified version of the HO 110 with 58mm TB). The spark advance tables on the 113 were quite abit advanced over the 110 and I figured the heads from Hillside were really flowing alot of air. Since the dealer techs weren't modifying the spark and there was no knocking showing in the SuperTuner recordings, I figured I'd try the 113 spark advance tables.

I copied them into my bike's map leaving everything else as it was. Since the bike was running relatively smooth I figured the spark advance might get me the improved performance I was looking for.

Wow... did it ever. I downloaded the new maps and the bike went from fast to a frickin rocketship. I took the VCI Smarttune and did some recordings. I then used the smarttune to download the recommended changes. There was no knocking in any of the recordings even with the 113 spark tables. With the smarttune recommended changes downloaded, I went for another ride and record.

With the smarttune recommended changes, the throttle was buttery smooth and the bike wanted to jump out from under me when I hit the throttle. I couldn't be more excited now that I've made these changes. I am 100% confident that the dyno will be substantially improved but I want to do more of my own tuning with Smarttune this week before heading back to the dealer.

I have a whole new appreciation for the SuperTuner after this evening's experience. I'll report more as I have more data to share.

[jfh]

Heatwave - As you have discovered, timing adjustments are critical to achieving the full performance potential of your build. Most "dyno operators" are reluctant to go there, but a skilled tuner will always do it. Sounds like you're on the right track to get it sorted on your own. Finding your optimum timing advance is a repetitive process of trial and error that is verified with your data logs. Remember that variances in fuel quality and increased ambient temps will have a significant impact on how much timing you can run. As a safeguard, it's best to remove a couple of degrees after finding your optimal advance.   

[Heatwave]

Heatwave - As you have discovered, timing adjustments are critical to achieving the full performance potential of your build. Most "dyno operators" are reluctant to go there, but a skilled tuner will always do it. Sounds like you're on the right track to get it sorted on your own. Finding your optimum timing advance is a repetitive process of trial and error that is verified with your data logs. Remember that variances in fuel quality and increased ambient temps will have a significant impact on how much timing you can run. As a safeguard, it's best to remove a couple of degrees after finding your optimal advance.   

Thanks for the advice. Its much appreciated and you've read my mind. I'm using Sunoco Ultra for the tuning but I have no desire to get to the tuning "edge". I'll definitely dial back after I find the edge as I know there'll be times the bike will be running on less than great gas. The key is finding the edge with good gas. Once I find that, I know there's nothing left on the table (other than changing out exhaust at some point).

[Ed Ramberger - One_Screamin_Eagle]

Once the tuner understands the 2010 Super Tuner, it's awesome.  Writing complete maps on the dyno is easy and fast. 

[CVOStreetglide]

To be fair, it's worth noting the Dealer's techs have been tuning with the RaceTuner for the past 6 years. They're not new to the software and they're going back to Harley school because of all the changes to the 2010 software.

I think it's also fair to say, that all the guy's that think they're experts on the RaceTuner, may find themselves starting all over again with the 2010 version of the Super Tuner. I absolutely want someone experienced in tuning with the 2010 SuperTuner and would welcome any and all recommended experts on the Pro-SuperTuner within 3 hrs of North Jersey.

Feel free to make a recommendation and I'll definitely follow-up with that tuner.

I'd recommend you go here....

Rosa's Cycle
540 New York Avenue, Huntington, NY 11743
Parts: 631-424-4955 • Service: 631-424-1235
Open Weekdays 9am-7pm; Sat 9am-5pm

http://www.rosascycle.com/


They do know what they are doing....

[Heatwave]

I'd recommend you go here....

Rosa's Cycle
540 New York Avenue, Huntington, NY 11743
Parts: 631-424-4955 • Service: 631-424-1235
Open Weekdays 9am-7pm; Sat 9am-5pm

http://www.rosascycle.com/


They do know what they are doing....

Rosas is definitely an option. I actually spoke with Andrew at the BlackThorne rally back in Sept. He had a booth at the rally. I'm currently at 110/110 however even the dealer believes its not tuned to its optimum (although it sure is fun riding as is). The dealer is sending his 2 best tuner techs to Harley school to get brushed up on the latest changes with the Pro SuperTuner. They're going in Jan and have offered to do a free tuning on the bike when they get back from school. Sounds like a reasonable offer and I'll wait till the dead of winter to see if they can get the bike where it deserves to be.

If they are still struggling, Andrew at Rosas is a good alternative for the tuning.

[CVOStreetglide]

Rosas is definitely an option. I actually spoke with Andrew at the BlackThorne rally back in Sept. He had a booth at the rally. I'm currently at 110/110 however even the dealer believes its not tuned to its optimum (although it sure is fun riding as is). The dealer is sending his 2 best tuner techs to Harley school to get brushed up on the latest changes with the Pro SuperTuner. They're going in Jan and have offered to do a free tuning on the bike when they get back from school. Sounds like a reasonable offer and I'll wait till the dead of winter to see if they can get the bike where it deserves to be.

If they are still struggling, Andrew at Rosas is a good alternative for the tuning.

You are more patient than I am. I'd be at Rosa's this afternoon!!!!  "Getter Done !!!!"   

[Heatwave]

You are more patient than I am. I'd be at Rosa's this afternoon!!!!  "Getter Done !!!!"   

If I lived where you do, I probably wouldn't have the patience either. It's getting harder and harder to find good days to ride as they daylight gets shorter, the weather gets colder and the roads get wetter. I'll ride in almost any temperature but once there's ice on the road, the salt trucks arrive and the bike goes to bed for the winter. It won't come out till after the first hard rains that wash the salt away.

There's nothing worse for a bike than riding in the winter after salt has been put on the roads. Quickest way to crap up your chrome is to get salt on it and then let it sit for several months. Patience is a virtue that all bikers need to have after November/December in the NorthEast.

That's when I switch over to dirt bike riding with my son, his friends and their dads. Fills in for not riding the Harley.

[CVOStreetglide]

If I lived where you do, I probably wouldn't have the patience either. It's getting harder and harder to find good days to ride as they daylight gets shorter, the weather gets colder and the roads get wetter. I'll ride in almost any temperature but once there's ice on the road, the salt trucks arrive and the bike goes to bed for the winter. It won't come out till after the first hard rains that wash the salt away.

There's nothing worse for a bike than riding in the winter after salt has been put on the roads. Quickest way to crap up your chrome is to get salt on it and then let it sit for several months. Patience is a virtue that all bikers need to have after November/December in the NorthEast.

That's when I switch over to dirt bike riding with my son, his friends and their dads. Fills in for not riding the Harley.

Sounds like a Florida road trip is in order!!!!! 82 today nd sunny!!! Boring (BTW: I used to live "up north" and got tired of the snow and cold weather)

I agree with you completely about the salt and bad weather ruining the bikes. I am a huge believer in heated garages

Regards