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[ckraus]

You were right on the money Fireman Fired00d. I checked this evening with my own bike and even though the part # matches on my bike's ecu for map compatibility, my 2010 SEUC ECU would not accept any maps that did not start with an 009 (this is the starting code for all 2010 Touring bike maps). Therefore it is NOT possible to use a 2009 SuperTuner map on a 2010 bike. I cannot test in the other direction (2010 map on a 2009 bike).

Sorry if I am asking a stupid question but can I confirm you did choose "Manually Select File"? It would have opened the file of course.. but was it just trying to flash it that failed? Did you get an error message?

I can certainly flash 009 and 205 maps on my 2009.

Chris.

[Heatwave]

I manually chose several 2009 maps to attempt to flash to my 2010 SEUC. I could open any file and making any tuning modifications I wanted. However when I went to flash the map to the bike by opening the "flash bike" screen, the "Run Program" button was deactivated (grayed out). There was a message above the button that stated the map was not compatible with my bike's ecu. There was no way to proceed further with this non-compatible map. I suppose this is a good safety feature for tuning.

The only ecu maps of all the one's included with the SuperTuner that did not create this "non-compatible" message with my 2010 SEUC were those maps that started with 009.

BTW, when you first choose to flash a map, the SuperTuner brings up all the maps that are compatible with your bike that came with the SuperTuner. You can manually chose other maps however they had to have been created from a compatible base map that originally came with the SuperTuner in order to flash them to the bike. Maps that were not compatible from the start can never be made compatible regardless of the changes you make to the map. I know because I tried.

You can try this yourself by opening a map other than an 009 or 205 map for your 2009 bike. I'd be interested to hear whether you get the same "not compatible" message when you proceed to open the flash bike screen with this non-compatible map.

Sorry if I am asking a stupid question but can I confirm you did choose "Manually Select File"? It would have opened the file of course.. but was it just trying to flash it that failed? Did you get an error message?

I can certainly flash 009 and 205 maps on my 2009.

Chris.

[Heatwave]

I think it's important to point out that it's most likely an error that the maps are allowed to go in.  Many O2 codes do not trigger check engine lights.  I would be curious to see if there are any codes.  When flashing a 2010 map into a 2009 the heated circuits are sitting there open.  That is one code I would be curious about. 

When flashing a 2009 map into a 2010, the 2010 O2 sensors will not be heated and are very far downstream - there's a good chance the bike will spend a lot of time in open loop. 

I believe that you should use the proper map for the intended application.

As I shared above, after testing on my own 2010 SEUC, it is not possible to load a 2009 map into a 2010 bike. The only maps that can be flashed into a 2010 are those that start with 009. All maps that start with 009 are designed for 2010 bikes. I have no information on whether a 2010 map can be downloaded into a 2009 bike other than the compatibaility that HD lists for the maps (which says it can be done).

But since they labeled their 2009 maps as compatible with 2010 bikes even thought the software prevents the flash from occurring, I can only imagine that the software will prevent flashing a 2010 map into a 2009 bike.

I have yet to read someone that has actually tried to flash a 2010 map onto a 2009 bike and I doubt the software will even allow the user to make that flash.

[Heatwave]

Take a chill and cool the panties.  I was just comparing the 2 systems...  Also, if you read the 8th post in the thread by ckraus, he loaded a 2010 map into his 2009.

Not sure what the reference to "chill and cool the panties" means but its not particularly important either. Yes Ckraus did mention that he has downloaded a 2010 map to his 2009 bike. I would be interested to know exactly what map it was from in the SuperTuner files that was actually backwards compatible. It might be helpful in better understanding how the the MoCo is labeling their maps for compatibility.

BTW, you never made any followed-up on your statement that the lambda tables are not altered when the type of fuel (gas, 10% ethanol, 25%ethanol) is changed, as I had shared earlier in this thread. I assume you've checked it out and confirmed that your original view was incorrect.

This could matter to others as more tuners get experience with the 2010 maps. I believe that talented tuners will figure out how to use the 3 fuel choices to trick the ECU into running in closed loop mode at lower AFRs (enrichened). It should be possible when the maps are set to one of the ethanol modes but the bike is actually run with premium fuel (no ethanol).

I assume from your silence on the matter that you now agree the lambda tables (as well as the normal AFR tables) are enrichened when the fuel type is changed from gasoline to a blend of gas/ethanol.

Given that fuel varies around the country (mid-West more ethanol, coasts less ethanol) my guess is that the MoCo tried to accomodate these lower octane fuel markets by enabling the closed loop portions of the map to be enrichened. This could result in the ability for those 2010 bikes with access to higher octane to trick the ecu into an enrichened closed loop mode when using premium gas.

My guess is that the software engineers had to compensate for losing the closed loop bias that was available in 2009 (not available in 2010) by adding the 3 new fuel types (not available in 2009).

[Steve Cole]

Just so everyone knows changing the fuel on the screen does NOTHING other than change what you see. If you program the bike and the only change you made was to change the fuel type on the screen NOTHING is any different.

[HOGMIKE]

I had a "perfect map" for my '09 (IMO, of course!).
I used SOME of the tables from that map on my '10, just 'cause I liked them. (spark, throttle, idle and a couple more)
Since the '10 is a new bike, we did some dyno time to get the VE's correct, and used that for the main tune.
I did not try to load the complete '09 map into the '10 ECM....figuring why try to fit a square peg into a round hole! Besides, 2 different bikes.
The comparison between the two bikes are very similar now as far as "seat of the pants" power delivery. I know that the dyno time was well spent, I can see the before and after curves.
IMO, if you have a '10, use the latest tables/maps. If you have an '09, use those maps. Run a V-tune if you think there is a couple more % points of efficiency there.
Remember, just because the dyno tells you that the bike is "perfect", it STILL may not have the "manners" you want.
Nice thing with the TTS, you can play with it 'till you get what you want.
Disclaimer: Works for me! LOL

[Heatwave]

Just so everyone knows changing the fuel on the screen does NOTHING other than change what you see. If you program the bike and the only change you made was to change the fuel type on the screen NOTHING is any different.

Steve, I certainly trust your opinion on the fuel settings for 2010, but if nothing actually changes, how would the bike's ecu actually make adjustments to accomodate for the different fuel settings? Of what value are these settings if nothing in the ecu's map is changed?

If what you say is correct, does that mean that if I have downloaded a map to my 2010 bike with the normal gas setting, it will perform identical (both seat-of-pants and dyno) with a separate map that is identical but has had the fuel type setting changed?

If this is true, it should be easy enough to confirm by running 2 identical maps in the same biike with the only difference being the fuel setting. Is that correct?

[Steve Cole]

A customer took a bike and loaded the file with normal fuel. He wanted to know if it was making changes as he could not see it in there testing. So I had him use our product to upload the ECM. Then repeat but change the fuel to a different one. Once all the different fuels had been programmed and uploaded he sent us the files. The code in the ECM was the exact same thing in each and every file. Then I told him to try and change just the AFR fuel table and send me the upload. That file showed the changes he had made, so I would assume he was doing it right.

The truth is that what HD did was to give you a way to see what different fuels will do to the bike but did nothing about it.

[Heatwave]

Do  you have any thoughts on why they would have taken the closed loop bias away from the 2010 maps? I kinda figured the different fuel settings was a way of replacing the closed loop bias.

A customer took a bike and loaded the file with normal fuel. He wanted to know if it was making changes as he could not see it in there testing. So I had him use our product to upload the ECM. Then repeat but change the fuel to a different one. Once all the different fuels had been programmed and uploaded he sent us the files. The code in the ECM was the exact same thing in each and every file. Then I told him to try and change just the AFR fuel table and send me the upload. That file showed the changes he had made, so I would assume he was doing it right.

The truth is that what HD did was to give you a way to see what different fuels will do to the bike but did nothing about it.

[ckraus]

Not sure what the reference to "chill and cool the panties" means but its not particularly important either. Yes Ckraus did mention that he has downloaded a 2010 map to his 2009 bike. I would be interested to know exactly what map it was from in the SuperTuner files that was actually backwards compatible. It might be helpful in better understanding how the the MoCo is labeling their maps for compatibility.

Hi,

I used the 009CAH001 calibration.

I've been running this for a while now and havn't had a single problem.

Chris

[Steve Cole]

The fuel calculation is done different in the 2010 so that you can now run closed loop in a range of values. The O2 sensor adjustment is still in there is just handled different and it's not allowed to be adjusted by the end user.

The old way you could only set AFR to 14.6 to run in closed loop so you adjusted the bias to shift the AFR.

The new way you just set the Lambda to various values that will allow closed loop.

[Heatwave]

It's not a matter of reading what's been posted. Believe it or not I am quite capable of reading. It's a matter of understanding what's being posted. Until now it simply hasn't made sense to me. I spent time with the software this morning and now better understand what's recently been posted.

What I "understand" now is that the choices of fuel type in the 2010 maps, make absolutely no real changes to the map that is downloaded to the bike. All that is being displayed in the AFR table is the calculated AFR for the type of fuel designated. Since the lambda table is not changed (other than rounding from the calculation) there is no change to the fuel mixture delivered to the engine.

Outside of modifying the fuel types, when you make a manual change to the AFR cells, you WILL make a corresponding change to the lambda table. This is where I was confused. Since the lambda table changed when making manual AFR table changes, it simply seemed logical that changing AFRs by selecting different fuel types, would also make a corresponding change to the lambda tables. I see now that logic doesn't apply to Harley software.

I now better understand how the tables work but cannot figure out why or how the fuel settings are even provided in the software. Seems like it provides no benefit other than to the high school kid trying to solve a stoichiometric question on a final exam. What a waste since it really doesn't provide any tuning benefit for engines.

I also now better understand how the software engineers compensated for removing the Closed Loop Bias table from the 2009 maps by simply providing the same range within the closed cells in the actual AFR/Lambda tables. This is certainly a simpler approach.

Thanks for setting me straight although maybe next time you might consider offerring the assistance with a little less attitude. The information is nevertheless appreciated.

For the record, I never said or suggested I was a professional tuner. Just a guy that owns a 2010 SEUC and the SuperTuner software that's trying to figure out how best to use it on my bike.

[HOGMIKE]

It's not a matter of reading what's been posted. Believe it or not I am quite capable of reading. It's a matter of understanding what's being posted. Until now it simply hasn't made sense to me. I spent time with the software this morning and now better understand what's recently been posted.

What I "understand" now is that the choices of fuel type in the 2010 maps, make absolutely no real changes to the map that is downloaded to the bike. All that is being displayed in the AFR table is the calculated AFR for the type of fuel designated. Since the lambda table is not changed (other than rounding from the calculation) there is no change to the fuel mixture delivered to the engine.

Outside of modifying the fuel types, when you make a manual change to the AFR cells, you WILL make a corresponding change to the lambda table. This is where I was confused. Since the lambda table changed when making manual AFR table changes, it simply seemed logical that changing AFRs by selecting different fuel types, would also make a corresponding change to the lambda tables. I see now that logic doesn't apply to Harley software.

I now better understand how the tables work but cannot figure out why or how the fuel settings are even provided in the software. Seems like it provides no benefit other than to the high school kid trying to solve a stoichiometric question on a final exam. What a waste since it really doesn't provide any tuning benefit for engines.

I also now better understand how the software engineers compensated for removing the Closed Loop Bias table from the 2009 maps by simply providing the same range within the closed cells in the actual AFR/Lambda tables. This is certainly a simpler approach.

Thanks for setting me straight although maybe next time you might consider offerring the assistance with a little less attitude. The information is nevertheless appreciated.

For the record, I never said or suggested I was a professional tuner. Just a guy that owns a 2010 SEUC and the SuperTuner software that's trying to figure out how best to use it on my bike.

Just to give you a different perspective on your goals, I'll tell you what I did.
I bought the TTS for my '09 not thinking I'd be getting the '10. Yes, had to purchase ANOTHER TTS for the '10.
I never had the '09 on the dyno, just used a "canned map" from Fullsac and tweaked a few tables until I got the bike running where I wanted it. (NOTE: WHERE I WANTED IT)
I will be the first to say that my "tune" would probably not work for most, as I have "special circumstances" on that bike. Bike ran awesome, no pinging, 86-103 octane gas, good power, nice manners, worked perfectly.
Now, my '10: had a full (8 hrs) day on the dyno, got the numbers we were looking for, yes, used the Lambda maps for tuning, and the bike, again, ran great!
Because of MY riding style, I DID change some on a few of the tables to suit me, but, left the main VE setup, and closed loop as is. Bike runs fine, but, I'll probably do some more minor tweaking in the future.
I spent a lot of time reading the help files with the software, and talked to some experts in the field (thanks, Steve) to get where I'm at now.
If you are serious about learning more about the tuning with SSERT, etc. do some reading, try some different settings, go for a ride, see how you like it, then make MORE changes until you get where you want to be. You may lose 1-2 HP/TQ playing with the tune, but, maybe (MAYBE) your bikes manners will improve to that point where YOU like it!
If you saved the map you are using, you can always go back if you screw something up.
Again, JMHO, and it works for ME!
Hope this helps a little.
Mike

[Ed Ramberger - One_Screamin_Eagle]

It's not a matter of reading what's been posted. Believe it or not I am quite capable of reading. It's a matter of understanding what's being posted. Until now it simply hasn't made sense to me. I spent time with the software this morning and now better understand what's recently been posted.

What I "understand" now is that the choices of fuel type in the 2010 maps, make absolutely no real changes to the map that is downloaded to the bike. All that is being displayed in the AFR table is the calculated AFR for the type of fuel designated. Since the lambda table is not changed (other than rounding from the calculation) there is no change to the fuel mixture delivered to the engine.

Outside of modifying the fuel types, when you make a manual change to the AFR cells, you WILL make a corresponding change to the lambda table. This is where I was confused. Since the lambda table changed when making manual AFR table changes, it simply seemed logical that changing AFRs by selecting different fuel types, would also make a corresponding change to the lambda tables. I see now that logic doesn't apply to Harley software.

I now better understand how the tables work but cannot figure out why or how the fuel settings are even provided in the software. Seems like it provides no benefit other than to the high school kid trying to solve a stoichiometric question on a final exam. What a waste since it really doesn't provide any tuning benefit for engines.

I also now better understand how the software engineers compensated for removing the Closed Loop Bias table from the 2009 maps by simply providing the same range within the closed cells in the actual AFR/Lambda tables. This is certainly a simpler approach.

Thanks for setting me straight although maybe next time you might consider offerring the assistance with a little less attitude. The information is nevertheless appreciated.

For the record, I never said or suggested I was a professional tuner. Just a guy that owns a 2010 SEUC and the SuperTuner software that's trying to figure out how best to use it on my bike.

There's no avatar of a little guy extending a twig of peace.  No hard feelings I hope.

[Steve Cole]

Bottom line is that the way HD shows things in there tuner is misleading at best. Simple thing to remember is that no matter what anyone else does you need to be happy with your bike. I do not spend as much time as others tuning WOT because I care about what I do 95% of the time which is ride at part throttle. If you want bragging rights spend the time on the dyno at WOT and get every last little bit you can and hope that you do not hurt the motor doing it. Most people who run dyno's will not hurt the motor but running them lean makes more heat and better power to a point. I would rather lose a few HP and keep the cylinder temperatures in check.

What these various fuels do it screw with the tuneup and one has to hope there is plenty of range in the system to cover for it. Truth is there is not these days. Spend your time to get the VE's correct and then you will have the full range of the system IF you get some fuel that is different than what you normally have. Lambda or AFR each will do the job but do not mix them as they are not the same. Anyone who puts a 2010 DBW calibration into a 2009 bike is just asking for trouble as things are not the same. It's something we believe should not be done and we do not allow it in our product just for that reason.