Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ckraus]

Hello,

I just got the new SEST software and while playing with the smart tune I noticed there is a set of maps/calibrations for the 2009 as well as the 2010.

I understand that there were no engine modifications between the years yet there are differences in the maps. I noticed the closed loop bias is gone in the 009 version (2010) when compared to the 205 version (2009).

The rpm limited has gone down to 6100 from 6200 and the Afr table is also different.

Does anyone know why the difference?

[Heatwave]

Hello,

I just got the new SEST software and while playing with the smart tune I noticed there is a set of maps/calibrations for the 2009 as well as the 2010.

I understand that there were no engine modifications between the years yet there are differences in the maps. I noticed the closed loop bias is gone in the 009 version (2010) when compared to the 205 version (2009).

The rpm limited has gone down to 6100 from 6200 and the Afr table is also different.

Does anyone know why the difference?

I'm not sure however I think the lack of the closed loop bias in the 2010 ECU map tuning is somehow related to the new fuel type settings that can be used for tuning. There are no fuel type options when tuning the 2009 bikes however when tuning a 2010, you can choose normal gas (which has higher - leaner AFRs). You can also choose a 10% ethanol fuel setting which lowers (enrichens) all the closed loop AFR settings. And lastly there's a 25%(?) ethanol setting which really lowers (enrichens) the closed loop AFRs.

It would seem to me that if someone could figure out how to convert regular 2010 ECU maps to "25% ethanol" fuel settings, while still using premium gas, you could actually get the closed loop portion of the map to run in the mid 13's AFR. I'm just not sure how to go about modifying the VE tables and the spark advance tables to take advantage of these fuel settings when you actually have good fuel to run on.

I'm sure someone smarter than me is going to figure out how to take advantage of the fuel type settings in the 2010 tuning maps to maximize performance instead of accomodating ethanol fuel. I just haven't been able to figure it out. Has anyone explored these fuel settings for improving performance while still running premium gas?

[ckraus]

So do you think it is ok to run a 009 calibration on a 2009 bike?

[Heatwave]

Selecting a different fuel type DOES NOT make it run richer or leaner.  The Lambda value is used as a multiplier against the stoich of each fuel (every fuel has a different stioch) and all that you are seeing in the air fuel table is what the mixture will be if you truly run that fuel.

To make this easy to understand, set the closed loop to 1.0 Lambda then switch to view as air fuel.  As you select each air fuel, wherever the Lambda value is set at one, it will state that fuel's stoich value. If you switch back to the Lambda view you will see that it stays at 1.0

In the 2010 Touring cals, BOLD numbers equal closed loop.  If you don't understand Lambda, simply set your table to view air fuel and keep it set at 14.6.  Then type in 14.3 in the closed loop area.  Even if you set the air fuel to display at 25% ethanol and type in 13.2 it will still run at 14.3 if you have normal gas in it.

So explain to me how running with the 10% ethanol tables why the engine wouldn't run richer if you were using premium gas (no ethanol) with those tables? The 10% and 25% ethanol tables are both progressively much richer (lower AFRs) than the normal gas tables. The bike has no clue what type of fuel its running. It's just using the metric in the AFR table to adjust the VE (in closed loop).

[ckraus]

You can't run a 2010 Touring cal in a 2009 Touring.

My 2009 cvo ultra glide took the 009 map without a problem?

The ECM part number in the calibration lists the ECM I have?

[Heatwave]

They are Lambda based.  They're not running on af mixtures, they're running on Lambda values - the sensor is actually a Lambda sensor.   If you do what I told you to do above, you will see that the Lambda values stay the same even if you switch af reported values. 

Take the Lambda value and multiply by the stoich of the fuel - you will then get what is displayed in the af tables.  change the lambda values, switch over to af and multiply the Lambda value in a given cellby the fuels stoich value.  Switch to the different af possibilities and use the same math.  You will then get the number reported in the af cell.  However, as stated above, the Lambda value stays the same.

Swirching the Reported AF value WILL NOT make it run richer or leaner. 

I don't know what map you're looking at but in the 2010 map for my SEUC the Lambda values ABSOLUTELY change depending on what type of gasoline you've chosen. If you choose "14.6 Gasoline" and then view the Lambda values, then change the Stoich Value to "13.6 25% Ethanol" you will absolutely have a different map with different values whether you are viewing it in Lambda or as AFR.

Check it out for yourself. If the Lamda value is changed, the TB is unquestionably delivering more fuel resulting in a richer mixture.

There's no way the fuel mixture can remain unchanged if the lambda values are being altered. Choosing Gasoline or 10% Ethanol or 25% Ethanol absolutely changes the values in the Lambda map. Please explain how different Lambda values can result in identical air/fuel ratios?

[Heatwave]

My 2009 cvo ultra glide took the 009 map without a problem?

The ECM part number in the calibration lists the ECM I have?

All maps list which ECUs they are compatible with. The list of compatible ECUs part #s listed for the 2009 maps is identical to the list of part #s (at least for touring bikes) that are compatible with 2010 maps. Therefore (at least in theory given the part #s listed for these maps) any map for a 2009 touring bike is interchangeable with any 2010 Touring bike. The opposite should also be true.

Since the ECU part #s are the same for the 2009 bikes, you should be able to use any 2010 Map with a 2009 touring bike.

[Heatwave]

The 2010's have a circuit to heat the 02 sensors and this is part of the cals.  The 2009 and 2010 bikes have different O2 sensors and wiring.  The -A ecm is needed for the heater circuit.  If the 2009 has the -A ecm and takes the flash, there is still the difference in the sensors/circuitry. 

I recognize the differences in the O2 sensors however harley must have felt the difference wasn't enough to justify different maps. They used all the same ECU part #s for both the 2009 and 2010 Touring bike maps.

[ckraus]

Did you actually drive it for a while or just flash it in?

I've been riding for a few weeks now and have even used the autotune feature.

Chris.

[Steve Cole]

Just because you can put a 2010 map into a 2009 bike does not make it right. Looks like HD made a mistake and allowed something that should not be done. IMHO put the right map for the application and tune it up properly. The 009 maps do not belong in a 2009 bike as sensors are different.

[Heatwave]

Just because you can put a 2010 map into a 2009 bike does not make it right. Looks like HD made a mistake and allowed something that should not be done. IMHO put the right map for the application and tune it up properly. The 009 maps do not belong in a 2009 bike as sensors are different.

I understand.... however I thought it was interesting (and worth noting) that the MoCo thought the maps for 2009/2010 are interchangeable with bikes from either year. I have yet to hear from anyone that's used an 2009 map in a 2010 bike OR a 2010 map in a 2009 bike.

There is an advantage (I think) to using the 2009 maps on a 2010 bike (vs using a 2010 SuperTuner map in a 2009 or 2010 bike). The 2009 maps provide tuning by more increments of THROTTLE POSITION, while the 2010 maps only allow for tuning by MANIFOLD PRESSURE. While I haven't tried a 2009 map in my 2010 bike, it would seem to make tuning simpler by using the 2009 maps instead of the 2010 maps. Since the MoCo has said they are interchangeable between the 09 and 10 bikes, it should work in theory.

[Fired00d]

I understand.... however I thought it was interesting (and worth noting) that the MoCo thought the maps for 2009/2010 are interchangeable with bikes from either year. I have yet to hear from anyone that's used an 2009 map in a 2010 bike OR a 2010 map in a 2009 bike.

There is an advantage (I think) to using the 2009 maps on a 2010 bike (vs using a 2010 SuperTuner map in a 2009 or 2010 bike). The 2009 maps provide tuning by more increments of THROTTLE POSITION, while the 2010 maps only allow for tuning by MANIFOLD PRESSURE. While I haven't tried a 2009 map in my 2010 bike, it would seem to make tuning simpler by using the 2009 maps instead of the 2010 maps. Since the MoCo has said they are interchangeable between the 09 and 10 bikes, it should work in theory.

I'll be the first to admit this tuning talk you guys are speaking of is like a foreign language to me, however to trust what the MoCo says as gospel knowing all the errors/typo's that have been seen over the years is dangerous to say the least. Just because they (MoCo) says it will work doesn't mean it will, there are plenty of things that they say will not work that will I'd be more incline to take the word of someone (especially  someone with experience on the subject) other then them (MoCo) on this. JMHO.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[ckraus]

Just because you can put a 2010 map into a 2009 bike does not make it right. Looks like HD made a mistake and allowed something that should not be done. IMHO put the right map for the application and tune it up properly. The 009 maps do not belong in a 2009 bike as sensors are different.

I was looking at the Delphi site comparing the 02 sensors and sure they are different sizes, the smaller one has a heater and is four wire but otherwise they seem the same.

Maybe they arn't different enough?

Here are the specs of the mini: http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/sensors/et/mini_swh_ox/

and here are the specs of the larger one: http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/sensors/et/switchingoxy/

[Heatwave]

You were right on the money Fireman Fired00d. I checked this evening with my own bike and even though the part # matches on my bike's ecu for map compatibility, my 2010 SEUC ECU would not accept any maps that did not start with an 009 (this is the starting code for all 2010 Touring bike maps). Therefore it is NOT possible to use a 2009 SuperTuner map on a 2010 bike. I cannot test in the other direction (2010 map on a 2009 bike).

I'll be the first to admit this tuning talk you guys are speaking of is like a foreign language to me, however to trust what the MoCo says as gospel knowing all the errors/typo's that have been seen over the years is dangerous to say the least. Just because they (MoCo) says it will work doesn't mean it will, there are plenty of things that they say will not work that will I'd be more incline to take the word of someone (especially  someone with experience on the subject) other then them (MoCo) on this. JMHO.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[SBB]

You were right on the money Fireman.-------------> Fired00d

SBB