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[Heatwave]

I have a 2010 SE Ultra. I dynoed the stock engine before making engine upgrades. The stock 110 was putting out 77hp/100 ftlbs from the factory on the dealer's dynojet.  

I made the following engine upgrades:

- headwork done by Hillside (10.5 comp)
- upgraded the injectors to 5.3 gm/sec
- swapped the 50mm Throttlebody for the larger 58mm TB
- replaced the stock air cleaner with the ventilator air cleaner
- installed roller rockers
- installed Woods 408-6 cams
- removed the exhaust Cat and replaced the baffles with Fullsac 2.25" performance baffles
- installed the SuperTuner

After dyno tuning this setup, the performance was improved to 107hp/108ft lbs. Almost all the 110 engines with this exact build are generating over 120hp and 120ft lbs. The main difference between my build and the other 110s were the exhaust (2:1 vs my 2:2) and all of the other bikes were 2009 and older. My bike performed excellent above 2500rpms but was definitely soft below 2500rpms.

I decided to upgrade the exhaust and installed the D&D Fat Cat Boss 2:1. Bike was tuned again (dealer offered at no charge after his techs returned from Harley tech school last week). The techs that did the tuning said they have maxed out the ST's limits and there's no more room to improve the performance.

As you can see from the dyno below they did a great job tuning the bike in terms of AFR. 111hp/115ft lbs. Nice broad torque band with 100ft lbs or more from 2700-5700 rpms. It pulls strong all the way to 6000.

The bike rides incredible. Endless torque everywhere. The throttle "pulls" to the rev limiter. Its an explosive ride with excellent slow speed throttle handling. It's everything I thought it would be OTHER than appearing to be delivering far less performance on paper than other identical builds.

Here's my questions:

- Is the overall HP held back by going to the 58mm TB? I still have the 50mm and could reinstall. The techs and Harley believe the 58mm is too big for a 110 but I struggle to see how it would reduce high end HP. If slow speed handling was poor I could blame the 58 but that isn't an issue.
- Is the problem with the tuning software? To date I have yet to see a single 2010 110 that is able to perform better than the graph below. Other tuning shops believe the problem is the new 2010 ST software which is different from the past versions and is not allowing engines to be tuned to their full potential. Some tuners are suggesting I may need to piggy back a Power Commander or other tuner on top of the ST if my goal is more power.
- Am I leaving alot of performance on the "table"? Should I be disappointed that the engine doesn't appear to be delivering the same level of performance that identical 110 builds from 2009 and older were capable of?

I'm not really hung up on paper performance other than the fact that it appears to be so much less than other bikes with the identical engine build, which has me wondering how great the performance would be with 10+ more hp and ft-lbs. What do others think? Is anyone else struggling to get more power out of their 2010 110 engine build or is just me? Has anyone been able to get more Hp/Tq from a naturally aspirated 2010 110" engine? All constructive feedback welcome.

[Harleyrider_49]

I hope I can see #'s like that with my 95" some day ! ! 

[JDOFLHRIDER]

Harley switched tunners from master tune to a new vresion and the new version is missing alot of capabilites that old tunner had.My tunner went to the mastertune to keep those adjustments and is waiting for the t-max.  Good luck jdo

[Fired00d]

Why worry about this..

......
 It's everything I thought it would be OTHER than appearing to be delivering far less performance on paper than other identical builds.

.....

When you have this..

......

The bike rides incredible. Endless torque everywhere. The throttle "pulls" to the rev limiter. Its an explosive ride with excellent slow speed throttle handling. 

.....

If the bike is fun to ride and reliable be happy. A piece of paper will lay flat and you can put anything on it... don't sweat the small stuff.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Harleyrider_49]

Had ta come back here........I agree w/ d00d......just what I've seen some 110's post'n........

[Heatwave]

Why worry about this..
When you have this..

If the bike is fun to ride and reliable be happy. A piece of paper will lay flat and you can put anything on it... don't sweat the small stuff.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

In general, I agree. I'm very pleased with the performance but it seems pretty natural to wonder why my engine build has 10% lower performance than identical engine builds. I'm curious to find out if others have been able to get more than 111hp and 115ft-lbs from a 2010 110" engine. Given that almost every 2009 and older engines with this exact build have results in the 120+hp/120+ ft-lbs. If others are also seeing lower performance in 2010 110 engine builds than the same engine builds from previous years, it would definitely suggest that the substantial changes to the ST in 2010 is impacting overall engine performance.

If this turns out to be true, then its worth knowing that other tuning software might be preferable for 2010 and up engines. Very curious to hear if any 2010 CVO owner has been able to get an engine build over 111/115.

[td119]

Heatwave

Did Tramontin do all the engine work??

[Heatwave]

Heatwave

Did Tramontin do all the engine work??

Other than the headwork done by Hillside, the entire build was assembled and tuned by Tramontin's shop (Curtis did the tuning).

[grc]

Let's say that someone with a 2010 comes back tomorrow and claims his identical build came in at 120/120.  What is that going to tell you?  Not necessarily a whole lot, IMHO.

Considering that theoretically identical engines often measure differently even on the same dyno, it is not unusual to see differences when you factor in different dyno, different tuner/operator, different test conditions.  Before you convince yourself there is something wrong, find another reputable dyno operator and have him test your bike.

Jerry

[Heatwave]

Let's say that someone with a 2010 comes back tomorrow and claims his identical build came in at 120/120.  What is that going to tell you?  Not necessarily a whole lot, IMHO.

Considering that theoretically identical engines often measure differently even on the same dyno, it is not unusual to see differences when you factor in different dyno, different tuner/operator, different test conditions.  Before you convince yourself there is something wrong, find another reputable dyno operator and have him test your bike.

Jerry

I would say that if he generated 120/120 with a similar 2010 engine build and tuned it using a Power Commander, that the SuperTuner might be holding the engine back. That type of info might be very helpful to other 110 owners that are seeing lower performance after upgrading their 2010 110 engines.

I would think that 2010 CVO owners might be interested in knowing if the 2010 SuperTuner has "limitations" built into the software, which has been suggested by several tuning experts I've spoken with. Before joining in this conspiracy thinking, I thought it might be worth checking to see if other 2010 CVO owners have been able to generate more performance and which software they used to tune their bike.

[SteveFLHTK]

It'd also be useful to check with someone like Steve at Fullsac that tunes these engines all the time with the TTS Mastertune.  If similar builds consistently yield better numbers with the TTS, then it certainly points to the Super Tuner.

[SBB]

A couple of thoughts.

1)

Almost all the 110 engines with this exact build are generating over 120hp and 120ft lbs.

Where are these numbers coming from?
Same dyno? Same operator? Same day? Same season?
Almost all? To me that denotes some didn't make those numbers.

2)

and all of the other bikes were 2009 and older.

All? Were they ALL 08 or 09? If not then they didn't have the TBW 58mm.
How many is all? 1, 2?

3) 

Considering that theoretically identical engines often measure differently even on the same dyno, it is not unusual to see differences when you factor in different dyno, different tuner/operator, different test conditions.  Before you convince yourself there is something wrong, find another reputable dyno operator and have him test your bike.

 

Jerry has the most correct answer for your question.

4) 

If the bike is fun to ride and reliable be happy. A piece of paper will lay flat and you can put anything on it... don't sweat the small stuff.

Jerry has the most correct answer but d00d has the smartest answer.

If this is a contest of dyno sheets then have it redone and tell the operator you want big numbers, not accurate numbers. 60 lbs. of air in the rear tire, operator stands up as the run is done, there's all kind of ways to get inflated numbers but when it's all done the important thing is,

The bike rides incredible. Endless torque everywhere. The throttle "pulls" to the rev limiter. Its an explosive ride with excellent slow speed throttle handling. It's everything I thought it would be

A big number dyno sheet means nothing if you lose the above.

Listen to d00d, ride it and have fun!

SBB

[Heatwave]

A couple of thoughts.

1)
Where are these numbers coming from?
Same dyno? Same operator? Same day? Same season?
Almost all? To me that denotes some didn't make those numbers.

2)
All? Were they ALL 08 or 09? If not then they didn't have the TBW 58mm.
How many is all? 1, 2?

3)   

Jerry has the most correct answer for your question.

4) 
Jerry has the most correct answer but d00d has the smartest answer.

If this is a contest of dyno sheets then have it redone and tell the operator you want big numbers, not accurate numbers. 60 lbs. of air in the rear tire, operator stands up as the run is done, there's all kind of ways to get inflated numbers but when it's all done the important thing is,

A big number dyno sheet means nothing if you lose the above.

Listen to d00d, ride it and have fun!

SBB

Here's the dyno's I'm referring to. They are very similar to my engine build (if not identical), other than being 2009 and older CVO 110's. You are correct that they aren't 58mm TBs. In most of the examples they are HPI's 55mm but they are not fly-by-wire. To date I have yet to see a 110" engine with "worked" heads, a larger-than-stock throttlebody and a Woods 408-6 or even a TW8/9 that produced less than 120hp with a decent exhaust.

These are results from different dynos on different bikes on different days however none of the bikes were a 2010 110". If I was comparing to just 1 or 2 "happy dynos" I would ignore the difference, but could all of these dynos below be "rigged" for high numbers?
http://www.joescyclerepair.com/08SE110.jpg
http://www.rosascycle.com/dynosheets/dynosheets.html
http://www.woodcarbs.com/images/tc110efitw8-6-1.jpg
http://www.woodcarbs.com/images/tc110efitw9bg-1.jpg
http://www.woodcarbs.com/images/tc110efitw9b-6.jpg
http://www.woodcarbs.com/images/tc110efitw408-1.jpg
http://www.woodcarbs.com/images/tc110efitw408-7.jpg
http://www.woodcarbs.com/images/tc110efitw408-6.jpg

[Black Diamond]

IAs you can see from the dyno below they did a great job tuning the bike in terms of AFR. 111hp/115ft lbs. Nice broad torque band with 100ft lbs or more from 2700-5700 rpms. It pulls strong all the way to 6000.

The bike rides incredible. Endless torque everywhere. The throttle "pulls" to the rev limiter. Its an explosive ride with excellent slow speed throttle handling. It's everything I thought it would be OTHER than appearing to be delivering far less performance on paper than other identical builds.

Here's my questions:

- Is the overall HP held back by going to the 58mm TB?

- Is the problem with the tuning software?

- Am I leaving alot of performance on the "table"?

I've been down this path myself.

FWIW:
I compared the 50 v 58 mm tb. Not enough difference that you'ld notice with a "butt" dyno.

I have the SERT in my build which was replaced with the SEST. Again, no difference. Seems to be strictly the perference of the tuner.

I doubt there's enough left on the table to make it worth pursuing. At some point your spending a lot of money for minimal gains.

She looks to me to be a great "street" build. I'd just toss a leg over her and ride. Ya can't ride a dyno sheet anyway.

Don't drive yourself crazy with these dyno sheets, love what your riding and get your smile in the wind

JW

[Heatwave]

The numbers look fine. Does it feel stronger above 2500 RPM in all gears? The real answer comes from riding the bike. So are you disappointed after a ride? Or are you smiling from ear to ear? I suspect its the latter.

The bike pulls strong from 2000 rpms in all gears. I had a smile from ear to ear on the first ride (about 60 miles). Its simply fantastic in the curves and the power feels unlimited. With the torque band, shifting is simply not as important as it was before since the bike can pull whenever its asked to. Absolutely no disappointment in the ride but still wondering if there's another 10 hp/ft-lbs I left in the motor by using the SEST?