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[jagonza1]

Here is my dilemma.  I have a 2003 Roadglide.  95 inch Fueling reaper 574 gear drive cams.  True duals with bub7 slipons. Power commander. I just put the cams in.   My problem is that I rode the bike home it was fine.  Rode it a couple more days and then went to do a long one and the bike started wet sumping.  Like to the tune or a quart in 30 miles.  The bike cools and start the bike up and some of the oil comes back.  When it starts sumping the bike start rattling losing power blowing it out the air cleaner and the exhaust. I do know that my pinion run out at 38,000 miles is .004. Which seems excessive but every time I turn around Harley releases a new service bulletin increasing the tolerance.   Does anyone have any ideas.
Thanks
John

[sadunbar]

Here is my dilemma.  I have a 2003 Roadglide.  95 inch Fueling reaper 574 gear drive cams.  True duals with bub7 slipons. Power commander. I just put the cams in.   My problem is that I rode the bike home it was fine.  Rode it a couple more days and then went to do a long one and the bike started wet sumping.  Like to the tune or a quart in 30 miles.  The bike cools and start the bike up and some of the oil comes back.  When it starts sumping the bike start rattling losing power blowing it out the air cleaner and the exhaust. I do know that my pinion run out at 38,000 miles is .004. Which seems excessive but every time I turn around Harley releases a new service bulletin increasing the tolerance.   Does anyone have any ideas.
Thanks
John

Did you install the cams or did a shop?  If all was well prior to the cam install, I would take a look at your oil pump o'rings first - make sure they are in place and not pinched...   

[jagonza1]

New Life builders installed them for me.  He has done a lot of work for me in the past and I find him trustwrthy and meticulous.  he did replace the o-ring when we first niteced the problem and reseated it again.  the weird thing is that you take off and it is doing fine then you get our a bout 30 mile  around 75 MPH  and you hear a lot of rattling then you lose power look in the mirror and and the smoke is heavy pant leg covered in oil.  pull over and the oil is barely touching the dip stick.  let is cool down and restart and about o quart comes back but i am still a qhart low.  it sucks it up somewhere and then release it later. Rich is confuesed cause he says he has never seen that before.  i am afraid to try a fueling pump because of the .004 run out on the pinion which by the way i only have 38,000 mile on the bike.

[sadunbar]

New Life builders installed them for me.  He has done a lot of work for me in the past and I find him trustwrthy and meticulous.  he did replace the o-ring when we first niteced the problem and reseated it again.  the weird thing is that you take off and it is doing fine then you get our a bout 30 mile  around 75 MPH  and you hear a lot of rattling then you lose power look in the mirror and and the smoke is heavy pant leg covered in oil.  pull over and the oil is barely touching the dip stick.  let is cool down and restart and about o quart comes back but i am still a qhart low.  it sucks it up somewhere and then release it later. Rich is confuesed cause he says he has never seen that before.  i am afraid to try a fueling pump because of the .004 run out on the pinion which by the way i only have 38,000 mile on the bike.

I think I would have to take a second look at the oil pump.  Take it apart and make sure the housings are not scored.  Make sure the pump is properly aligned.  And take another look at all the o'rings.  If it was good before it was taken apart, it is most likely something to do with the oil pump.

[jagonza1]

I guess thats will be done tomorrow.  I didn't think switching to geardrive would bring this other problem to the surface.

[Gecko]

Just a stab, but is it possible they installed the breather timing gear off sync?

[HD Street Performance]

.004 TIR is too much runout for gear drive regardless of what the MOCO spec is, look at Andrews spec. <.002 IIRC.
What you are calling sumping may in fact be excessive blowby the rings and / or overfilled oil tank IMHO

[jagonza1]

Checked compression and all is well there still going to do a leak down test today to make sure.  Oil was definatly no over filled in fact it was low each time. It sems fine until i did the gear drive I have a feeling I may have a se of S&S flywheels in my futur with a fueling pump. just trying to get a handl on thes oil first cause if I got to do a lower end I wwould like to be able ot order the parts get them set up while I am still riding that way I won't be down 2 months during the summer.

[HD Street Performance]

.004 works fine with the OEM pump and no gear drive. Consider conversion cams and the 07up TC roller chain setup.

Best oring for the case scavenge is the yellow upper pushrod orings supplied by HD

Do a conventional sumping check. Motor hot and let it idle for a minute then off and pull the lower case plug measuring the residual.

No need to look to the aftermarket to fix this when stock parts are fine and when the installation is done properly.

[djkak]

......the weird thing is that you take off and it is doing fine then you get our a bout 30 mile  around 75 MPH  and you hear a lot of rattling then you lose power look in the mirror and and the smoke is heavy pant leg covered in oil.  pull over and the oil is barely touching the dip stick.  let is cool down and restart and about o quart comes back but i am still a qhart low.  it sucks it up somewhere and then release it later. Rich is confuesed cause he says he has never seen that before.....

Based on what has been written so far, it reads like the scavenge side of the oil pump is cavitating. When this occurs, the scavenge pump essentially stops pumping while the feed pump continues to pump oil into the engine. Eventually the engine fills with enough oil to begin pushing it out the crankcase vent, in what can be described as a large Burp. As you described, it is not unusual to see a quart of oil pushed through the vent, into the air cleaner and induction module. The accompanying smoke screen and well lubricated right leg are common symptoms of this event.

When you shut the engine down, the cavitation stops, and the scavenge pump will operate normally when restarted. After a restart the excess oil that was previously pumped into the crankcase is pumped back to the oil reservoir, less the amount that ended up in the combustion chamber and your right leg. The pump will continue to operate normally until the next cavitation is triggered. The challenge in your case is to determine what the trigger is; from that point it is just a simple completion process. 

[HD Street Performance]

That all makes sense and the logical root cause is likely sucking air from the case oring I mentioned before.

[CVOjunkie]

I would also say you have a oil pump problem but the gear drive has nothing to do with this problem . The problem I see is the .004 run out on the crank the mo co calls .003 max My o4 seeg had .00325 runout so I pulled the short block and sent it to Arizona to short block charlies and had him true the crank and weld the pins then rebalance I also did a 107 kit ported the heads and went with headquarters cams with the gear drive and the engine is smother than the day it was new and upgraded the output side of the crank to a timkin bearing instead of the junk harley roller bearing.I am yet to get it dynoed that is in two weeks so we will see. When the cam plate was removed how did the back of it looked where the oil pump surface gearator pump meets the plate . With .004 out it is probaly seeing a lot of wear and the crank bushing probaly looks the same? This is something a seasoned mechanic would not of put back together with it being that far out . I am not bagging on your guy but?

[HD Street Performance]

Regardless of the sumping the gear drive does not live and work properly with that much runout. Big red flag.
If that was the runout the shop should have stopped at that point and informed the owner time to look for plan B

[jagonza1]

Well you are most likely correct on all of it.  I asked him if we needed to go further when he found the runout problen and he thought that he wouldn't have tried it any further.  I have sse the sevece bullitens that harley keeps revising.  on sain .003 another said .004 last on I sas said .006 then they sent a fax that said .12 if you can believe that.  I think I am going to throw in a set of S&S Flywheels bump it to 116 weld the crank and put in a fueling pump lifters and cam plate.

I apreciat the help everyone.  Hard to take the expensce and down riding time just starting the season but what can I do.

Later
John