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[tennisman]

  Oh my....I bought the top of the line Kawasaki in 2005, a Limited Edition (only 500 built, I got no. 446) 2053cc Vulcan.  This was the 2nd year the big Kaw had been in production.  I did the same in 2008, with a Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic with a 1800cc engine.  BTW, the HD purchase price is more than double the Kaw.

Here's my experience:

Kawasaki VN2000 Ltd:
Mileage: 48,000+
Times back to dealer for warranty repair: 0
Failures: Clutch cable @ 34K miles
Parts cost: $25
Negatives:  Periodic belt lubrication needed.

Harley FLHTCUSE3:
Mileage: 30,000+
Times back to dealer for warranty repair:3
Failures: Engine cutout @24K miles, rear cylinder auto compression release, starter grinding @ 30K miles, kickstand weldment failure
Parts: Auto compression release unit, starter, compensator, clutch basket, jiffy (kick) stand
Parts cost: $1100 (labor???) - still under warranty
Negatives:  Oil carryover to air cleaner

I never had a thought about extended warranties until now.
I really do like the HD, but not the reliability.

[smkymtnboy]

very sad :-

[Gone Fishin']

I think you have great results for both bikes. No reason to be sad but to keep enjoying the ride!

Cheers,
Louis

[yellowhog]

I definitely believe that quality has gone downhill.  I don't think it will improve until we, as consumers, demand that it does...

[murphy]

This one is my last.

[Twolanerider]

I think you have great results for both bikes. No reason to be sad but to keep enjoying the ride!

Cheers,
Louis

Louis, I think that Harley would agree with you.  Their response would be something like, "Sir, only three warranty failures in just under two years isn't a problem.  That is well within our expectation."

Unfortunately that's part of the problem.  Both ways.  Three warranty trips in two years is a lot; or at least it should be.  That Harley builds so much warranty handling in to the cost of the bikes is one of the reasons they charge as much as they do for them.  That so many riders are accustomed to thinking that's an acceptable level of failure means Mother Harley isn't made to do any better.

I'd be very dissatisfied with a computer, television, automobile or any other warrantied purchase that failed at an average of once every eight months.  For some reason HD gets a pass though.  It's a problem in more ways than one.

[Screamin]

Seems in the dark old days of AMF that there was a recognition by H.D. that quality had to improve, and it did. I don't see any of that conversation from the MoCo now. H.D.'s only focus now seems to be cost cutting and beating down the work force w/ never a mention, or hope, of quality improvement. They're writing their eulogy and don't even seem to be aware of it. Sad indeed.

[Gone Fishin']

@Twolane
The bike in question did experience the issues at 20k and more miles. And we don't know nothing about the riding conditions or maintenance during these miles. This is not to blame anything on the rider and I'm not trying to be the Moco advocate here. I just think it seems to me not a sign of the decreasing quality of the entire range. In fact the vast majority of HD customers won't ride 20k in their lifetime and what I see from newer models is quite an acceptable quality. A computer with that kind of usage I put through my bikes would have been thrown out twice for a newer model. And I say all that despite my brandnew BLK came with three visible blemishes in the paint (only one probably from shipping).
Relax, ride safely and enjoy the ride,
Louis  

[yellowhog]

When I purchased mine, I thought it was made to ride, not just look cool sitting in front of the local pub.  I expect it to perform as long as I don't abuse it (too often) and keep up with maintenance and such.  Unfortunately, quality is definitely an afterthought these days.  After all, the Chinese can only work so fast at $0.12 per hour.  When my wife's car had to have warranty work done on it three times in 3 years, she said that Ford sold her a piece of junk...and I couldn't really disagree with her.  So she bought a new one and it's already been in 3 times in the first 3 months...for the SAME problem.  An awful lot of money is spent on these vehicles (more than some houses cost 30 years ago) and there's no doubt in my mind that they should perform accordingly.  Pride of workmanship is just something we reminisce about when we think about the good old days.

[semperfi81]

Maybe something to do with union's at Harley?

[VaEagle]

I wonder what the true cause of the majority breakdown/warranty problems is based on, improper installation or design problems?
I know workmanship can suffer if morale is low due to thoughts of layoffs and plant closures are on employees minds. Yet maybe many issues would be solved if the EPA wasn't so restrictive in noise/pollution requirements. I am willing to bet the design engineers are having a hard time getting the old V-twin air cooled design to meet standards and if there is not much real world testing we become the test group for design changes.
I wonder too if the MOCO is just doing quick fixes to the old design drivetrain until it gets the water cooled motor designed for touring bikes?
If you were a pessimist I guess you could say they don't mind some problems since then the long term Harley riders will be willing to give up the hot/leaking design to get a more dependable water cooled bike with more performance.

[Rooster]

Maybe the new frame design is the first step.

[Twolanerider]

@Twolane
The bike in question did experience the issues at 20k and more miles. And we don't know nothing about the riding conditions or maintenance during these miles. This is not to blame anything on the rider and I'm not trying to be the Moco advocate here. I just think it seems to me not a sign of the decreasing quality of the entire range. In fact the vast majority of HD customers won't ride 20k in their lifetime and what I see from newer models is quite an acceptable quality.

I understand the point of view Louis.  I have to admit to having difficulty accepting it though.  First off 20k miles shouldn't be a lot of miles relative to modern manufacturing and materials standards.  It just shouldn't.  Also, that many won't ride the machines that many miles within five years doesn't excuse the failure.  Mother Harley takes our lives in their hands with every potential failure.  We're never farther than a single failure from a sudden stall in the middle of traffic at high speeds.  So suggesting that the median fleet usage is low in no way (to me) excuses a willingness by the manufacturer to allow unacceptably low MTBF rates and other failures.

One might consider the position less rationalization and more legitimately persuasive if we as consumers pushed back through market forces and had forced Harley to build cheap because we would only buy cheap.  We all know that's not the case though.  For years and years we bought all they built.  And paid dearly for the privilege.  But when well run automobile manufacturers can produce something that will carry four with a far more complicated drive train and control electronics, and with power windows, power steering and air conditioning and simply far more raw materials and handling; and do all that for what the bikes cost (or less) we know Harley should not be suffering.  Granted, economies of scale will work in favor of the automobile manufacturers.  But all things tolled Mother Harley can and should do better.

[grc]

I love how some folks always blame everything on "unions", as if banning trade unionism would automatically eliminate all product defects.  Some of the highest quality products in the world are made in unionized companies, while some of the sorriest junk known to man is made in nonunion shops around the world, so I'm not buying the BS that "unions" are to blame for low quality.  The "blameless" folks at the top of the food chain make the decisions that most directly influence quality and reliability, not the folks out in the factory screwing together the cheap crap parts that management gave them to work with. 

Proper design of parts and tooling/facilities, which doesn't fall under the "union" umbrella in most cases, is where quality starts and is also where the biggest impact can be made.  If you look at all the major malfunctions that have been cussed and discussed here in the past few years, such as crankshafts from hell and repetitive head gasket failures and ACR failures and untold numbers of electrical issues with component parts, I don't see union fingerprints all over them.  The union didn't tell H-D to go with a cheap crap cylinder for the 110, that was management.  The union didn't tell H-D to keep increasing the tolerance on the cranks when their new manufacturing methods turned out to be crap, I believe that was also a management decision.  And I'm pretty certain that the union didn't tell Harley to route the ACR wiring where it could be burned up, or to source many important component parts with the poorest quality suppliers.  And I can guarantee you the union wasn't the group who set up CVO production in hallways and other inappropriate areas rather than provide proper facilities and tooling to ensure a quality assembly operation.

Blame the little guys all you want, but the problem won't be fixed until management gets fixed.  And management won't get fixed until they and the board of directors take off the blinders and accept the fact that they are the problem, not the workforce.  I've been heavily involved in the same kind of stuff over the past few decades, and somehow my industry managed to vastly improve quality and reliability with the exact same union workforce out there screwing the stuff together.  The improvements came when management finally accepted the fact that the responsibility rested with us, not the union, and when we finally embraced workforce/management teamwork instead of the "just do what I say" method.


Jerry

[tennisman]

Louis,
I'm not being defensive, but I have to comment on the "driving conditions" and "maintenance"....my CVO has had all the maintenance called out in the service manual (and nothing I can find relates to the ACRs or starter for periodic maintenance requirements).  Driving conditions?  What can I say....same as I have for the 05 Kaw.  I'm at a loss unless you mean some sort of abuse occurred, and that, I can assure you, did not.  I don't do burnouts, launch at stoplights, race, or even exceed the speed limit on interstates - and if I did, I don't see this affecting the starter.
I do feel the prior ACR failure did do damage to the starter that caused its later demise.
T