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I love how some folks always blame everything on "unions", as if banning trade unionism would automatically eliminate all product defects. Jerry

Jerry, Jerry!

The quote is,

Maybe something to do with union's at Harley?

Blame everything? Where did you read "Blame everything on unions" in this thread?
There's a big difference in "Blame everything" and "Maybe something" as far as I read.
I enjoy reading your post, and I know your sensitive to union discussions but I didn't read "Blame everything on unions" in the post(s) above.
IMHO it's a combination of many factors that also include us consumers that are willing to accept less just to own a "Harley".
We are facing times in this country that we have never experienced before and Harley and every aspect of support involved with Harley will have to learn a new approach to operating and managing a business. Times are changing and those that can or will adapt will survive and hopefully prosper. With Harley it should mean a better product, or it could be that we all may one day own a piece of history.

SBB 

[Gone Fishin']

@tennisman
I'm certainly not suggesting it was you. And the ACR's, I think, on your specific model had some issues, while I believe later bikes had different ACR's. And let's not forget the 110 engine issues of the first 18 months of production so many of us had to work through, including myself on the 2007 SERK. I just felt you needn't be soooo disappointed altogether. Anyway, you have all the rights to be upset. You paid for it.
@Twolane
Got your point about the road safety. Wrong tire pressure (something only 5% of the riders check periodically) can and does certainly lead to more safety issues than any actual engine failure. My point was to put all this into a bigger perspective. Kind of trying to inject a little wisdom into the discussion ;-).

Cheers,
Louis

[Twolanerider]

@Twolane

Kind of trying to inject a little wisdom into the discussion ;-).

Cheers,
Louis

C'mon Louis, you know wisdom is wasted on Twolane.

[Jerry/MD]

Sorry to hear about your troubles tennisman. I hope things work out for ya. I've owned 3 Harleys..and so far...so good.

I'm a firm believer that quality AND reliability start during the design phase. It really has nothing to do with labor. Besides, if Harley started building bikes in non-union facilities...and cut costs...do you believe their quality would improve? I seriously doubt it. They aren't gonna take those savings and purchase better materials. I think you all know where those $$$ would go..................

The issues I have seen...or heard about have little to do with workmanship...it's all in the design. All too often concessions are made by non-engineers during the design phase for time and cost concerns. If you can keep the bean-counters...and management cost cutters away...you have a chance at building a quality product.

[tennisman]

Having worked on a bike assembly line, quality and reliability depends on design AND labor.  When I first started on the line, due to my inexperience, I screwed up a lot of things - I know some went thru and didn't get caught in inspection.  Bolt torque, part alignment...there's lots of things labor can mess up that has nothing to do with design.  But, I am convinced, my bike's failures were likely design...OR...someone messed up after installing the SERT and reassembling.  Anythings possible, I have no evidence, just conjecture.
I did what I have NEVER done before on a MC.  I went and bought 3 yr extended warranty on Silver.  I just don't trust it.
T

[Jerry/MD]

Having worked on a bike assembly line, quality and reliability depends on design AND labor.  When I first started on the line, due to my inexperience, I screwed up a lot of things - I know some went thru and didn't get caught in inspection.  Bolt torque, part alignment...there's lots of things labor can mess up that has nothing to do with design.  But, I am convinced, my bike's failures were likely design...OR...someone messed up after installing the SERT and reassembling.  Anythings possible, I have no evidence, just conjecture.
I did what I have NEVER done before on a MC.  I went and bought 3 yr extended warranty on Silver.  I just don't trust it.
T

Good points. Having been on the 'front line' of bike assembly you have some unique insight.

My only comment is an effective and thoughtful design approach would make assembly easier....and minimize workmanship issues. I'm constantly amazed at the placement of certain components on these bikes. They certainly don't make working on these things easy do they? This is one area where the Japanese shine. Yeah...I said it. I owned 2 Yamaha's back in the '80's. They were easy to work on...service...and they utilized all existing spaces effectively. Would I give up my Harley for a metric....NO! I just wish they would learn some of their design techniques.

[tennisman]

Spot on, Jerry....I cuss at every oil change, especially on the CVO with oil cooler, what was the thought process with the oil filter?!?  Then there's the primary, no fill plug or check plug, having to remove the primary cover is silly.
But I'll say the other side FOR Harley, kudos on the belt tensioning cams on the touring models....great idea!

[tazmun]

Spot on, Jerry....I cuss at every oil change, especially on the CVO with oil cooler, what was the thought process with the oil filter?!?  Then there's the primary, no fill plug or check plug, having to remove the primary cover is silly.
But I'll say the other side FOR Harley, kudos on the belt tensioning cams on the touring models....great idea!

  Are you referring to the "new" cam tensioner, the hydraulic ones that have started to show failures
because "people" assembled them wrong? Seriously, I have friends that work at the engine plant
in Menomonee Falls, and they have stories of "fellow" employees who don't give a rats ass about
quality. They turn them in but the "union" protects them. They like the union, but they say it isn't
right that the bums get protected. They know what will happen if people stop buying.

They love building the bikes but also agree, it's time for Harley to get get into the next century.

[grc]

  Are you referring to the "new" cam tensioner, the hydraulic ones that have started to show failures
because "people" assembled them wrong? Seriously, I have friends that work at the engine plant
in Menomonee Falls, and they have stories of "fellow" employees who don't give a rats ass about
quality. They turn them in but the "union" protects them. They like the union, but they say it isn't
right that the bums get protected. They know what will happen if people stop buying.

They love building the bikes but also agree, it's time for Harley to get get into the next century.

I think he's talking about the rear drive belt adjusters.  I don't know that I agree that they are an improvement over the old style adjusters in terms of precision, but they are much easier for the assembly operation.

There is a way to fix that incorrect assembly, if that's what actually occurred, of the tensioners.  Design the thing so it's impossible to put it together the wrong way.  There are many examples of parts, in all sorts of products, that are designed to only go together one way.  It's called error proofing, and it's something Harley needs to spend a little time learning about.  For instance, things like DC electric tools that monitor installation torque in real time, and either identify fasteners that need repair or actually shut down the process, would help eliminate all those loose parts and maybe allow H-D to eliminate that critical part checklist that they want checked at prep, at 1000 miles, at 5000 miles, and at every subsequent 5000 miles. 

As for the human element, yes there will always be the malcontents and jerks that would rather destroy something rather than be a part of something good.  That's true everywhere, not just at Harley.  If you want to lose a lot of weight, go spend some time hanging out with the employee's of a food processing plant and then see if you really want to eat what they produce. 

Other companies have the same types of humans to choose from, and many of them have unions as well.  How is it that they can produce good products and make good profits while depending on those same flawed creatures to do the physical work?  Don't suppose it has anything to do with management, perhaps?


Jerry

[Fired00d]

I think he's talking about the rear drive belt adjusters.  I don't know that I agree that they are an improvement over the old style adjusters in terms of precision, but they are much easier for the assembly operation.

There is a way to fix that incorrect assembly, if that's what actually occurred, of the tensioners.  Design the thing so it's impossible to put it together the wrong way.  There are many examples of parts, in all sorts of products, that are designed to only go together one way.  It's called error proofing, and it's something Harley needs to spend a little time learning about.  For instance, things like DC electric tools that monitor installation torque in real time, and either identify fasteners that need repair or actually shut down the process, would help eliminate all those loose parts and maybe allow H-D to eliminate that critical part checklist that they want checked at prep, at 1000 miles, at 5000 miles, and at every subsequent 5000 miles. 

As for the human element, yes there will always be the malcontents and jerks that would rather destroy something rather than be a part of something good.  That's true everywhere, not just at Harley.  If you want to lose a lot of weight, go spend some time hanging out with the employee's of a food processing plant and then see if you really want to eat what they produce. 

Other companies have the same types of humans to choose from, and many of them have unions as well.  How is it that they can produce good products and make good profits while depending on those same flawed creatures to do the physical work?  Don't suppose it has anything to do with management, perhaps?


Jerry

This is so true... My wife gets mad at me because I don't like to go out to eat but I've had to inspect many of the restaurants which means going back in the kitchens and other areas the general public doesn't go. After seeing some of the things (at finer restaurants) it is hard for me to go out to eat. I know the same thing is (could be) happening as you mentioned in the packing plants or take it a step further at the grocery stores we buy from. It's just something about after you see it and it's a "known" versus not seeing it and it remaining an "unknown" that gives me the willy's and not want to go out to eat.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[tazmun]

Jerry,
 I agree with you 120%. My friends also have problems with management too.
They want to make it faster & cheaper. LOOK at all the parts the MoCo buys
overseas. Now they MoCo wants a $55 MILLION savings at the engine plant
or "THEY WILL MOVE ELSEWHERE" Sounds like the same thing they did to YORK!
Next stop on the savings list, KANSAS CITY.
 I think "IF" we the owners would DEMAND better, and NOT put up with the JUNK
$30K+ motorcycles, we would get better. The MoCo knows what the normal HD
buyer will put up with, problem is the younger generation, will not. They are used
to bikes that you beat the piss out of, and they don't break! Like it was said,
if anything else we buy was like a Harley, we sure wouldn't buy another.

[sadunbar]

Jerry,
 I agree with you 120%. My friends also have problems with management too.
They want to make it faster & cheaper. LOOK at all the parts the MoCo buys
overseas. Now they MoCo wants a $55 MILLION savings at the engine plant
or "THEY WILL MOVE ELSEWHERE" Sounds like the same thing they did to YORK!
Next stop on the savings list, KANSAS CITY.
 I think "IF" we the owners would DEMAND better, and NOT put up with the JUNK
$30K+ motorcycles, we would get better. The MoCo knows what the normal HD
buyer will put up with, problem is the younger generation, will not. They are used
to bikes that you beat the piss out of, and they don't break! Like it was said,
if anything else we buy was like a Harley, we sure wouldn't buy another.

hmmm.... How does this work?  By not buying new bikes?  Bike sales are down about 15%.  Is quality about to get better because fewer are buying new rides?  Voting with your money will not bring improved quality.. if anything lower sales will worsen quality....because they will need more outsourcing to improve the margin.  Voting with your money might bring the company down, but it won't improve quality.

The only thing that will improve quality is a cultural movement within management.  Tough to pull off in a down market.  They had the chance over the past decade........

[tennisman]

We have a capitalistic system for motorcycles...only the strong survive.

Boy, did I start a discussion or what?!?

[grc]

hmmm.... How does this work?  By not buying new bikes?  Bike sales are down about 15%.  Is quality about to get better because fewer are buying new rides?  Voting with your money will not bring improved quality.. if anything lower sales will worsen quality....because they will need more outsourcing to improve the margin.  Voting with your money might bring the company down, but it won't improve quality.

The only thing that will improve quality is a cultural movement within management.  Tough to pull off in a down market.  They had the chance over the past decade........

Scott, if the alternative is to just keep handing the same incompetent greedy SOB's piles of cash for lousy products and lousy service, then bringing the company down by refusing to participate in our own screwing may be the only answer.  The reason the so-called management didn't fix all this stuff a decade or more ago was due to the fact that all of us idiots kept handing them our money and kissing their azz, and they were so busy counting our money they didn't bother learning how to run the business properly. 

Voting with your money doesn't have to bring the business down, and it can force changes in management that ultimately benefits customers as well as stockholders and employee's.  Case in point, Ford Motor Company.  Last time I looked, my old employer had caught and surpassed the Asian competition in initial quality, and made huge strides toward doing so in long term reliability.  It took a lot of pain on the part of everyone involved, but when the alternative is to go out of business it's amazing what management and labor can do together.  And without a handout from the taxpayer's, I might add.

I'm probably still young enough to make one more purchase before I hang up the riding boots, and I would love it if H-D turned things around so that my last purchase could be an American product.  But I'm not holding my breath, since I'm not hearing any of the right stuff coming out of Milwaukee.  Beating up the union and the state and local governments for concessions, but not offering anything different in terms of management accountability or product or anything but the status quo, isn't going to get it.  There comes a point where it's better to just let them go bankrupt, force out the old management, and start over again.  Kind of like Wagner and GM, if you know what I mean.


Jerry

[tazmun]

Jerry,
Another 120%.  Scott I know how your thinking, but your wrong.
Sometimes you have to fail to survive. Like Jerry said. look at Ford, GM,
and even Chrysler. Screw the people, they screw back.  I also own
another brand of motorcycle, and believe me, I NEVER have problems.
I can go on a 4/5k trip, and not worry, just like the cars I drive.
I also don't have to stick a couple grand in them to make them RUN!!
Can you imagine, driving your HD out of the dealer, and it's kicks ass
with NO MODIFICATIONS?