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[bigmuff]

My bike has never really run right from day one.  I had the dealer install V&H slip-ons before I picked it up and I paid for a SERT and dyno.

Finally this week I got tired of the bucking and hesitating and decided to hook up the SERT.

First surprise: no CD, no manual, no cables.  So off I go to the dealer and of course they don't have the CD and have to order it.  Then they rape me $40 for the cables.

Next surprise: the software sucks.  You can't resize the window and the window is too large to fit on my laptop's screen.  I was able to work around this but the software is clunky and the manual and help are terrible.

Next surprise: there are two identical connectors on the bike.  The on under the left cover is the correct one.  The one under the seat is not.

Ultimate surprise: the ECM had the stock factory map in it... 
F*ckers never tuned the damn thing.  Just put the slip-ons on it and threw the SERT in the box with the take-off parts.

So I modified the stock map by decreasing the AFR around a half point for everything under 3500 rpm and then smoothed the values above this.

Bike runs like a champ now.  No more hesitating and backfiring and after today's ride it was 24 degrees cooler than before.

Harley worries too much about the damn shareholders and not enough about the customer.  If they concentrated on making the customers happy the shareholders would be happy as a direct result.

[lonewolf55]

Next surprise: the software sucks.  You can't resize the window and the window is too large to fit on my laptop's screen.  I was able to work around this but the software is clunky and the manual and help are terrible.

Sure you don't have SESPT?

So I modified the stock map by decreasing the AFR around a half point for everything under 3500 rpm and then smoothed the values above this.

While that seems like a fix, you have pulled that area out of closed loop, and who knows what afr you are getting regardless of what you are asking for. First thing you have to do is calibrate your ve tables. Then your bike will start to run like it should.

[hogasm]

Harley worries too much about the damn shareholders and not enough about the customer.  If they concentrated on making the customers happy the shareholders would be happy as a direct result.

Harley knows exactly what they are doing. People keep buying their product and are dissatisfied so they purchase more product to make it run and/or look like they want it to. If you want to do something about it....stop buying their products

[grc]

Harley knows exactly what they are doing. People keep buying their product and are dissatisfied so they purchase more product to make it run and/or look like they want it to. If you want to do something about it....stop buying their products

  Right On!  I thought I was the only one preaching to the choir; good to see another voice chime in.

I really wish I had some clout with the EPA so I could force a little "investigation" into emissions system tampering by the MoCo and it's dealers.  I would especially like to know how they get a free pass on selling SERT/SEST software and communications modules for the sole purpose of tampering with the EPA approved calibrations in the ECM.  Yup, they have a "racing only" or "off road only" disclaimer, but they and the dealers and all of us in the real world know that 99.7% of these things are sold to people whose only "off road" experience is when they enter a parking lot or their own driveway.  I'd love to see them lose the ability to sell this crap.  Once you remove the profit incentive, the only reason to not make the stock calibrations better would be just plain incompetence.  And yes, they have plenty of that as well.  But as long as they have the profit incentive, they will never fix the incompetence issue.

If you want to tune your bike (and with a Harley it's pretty much a necessity), please refuse to perpetuate the problems.  Use one of the other device/software packages; there are many excellent choices that don't increase the profits of those clowns in Milwaukee who sold you that overpriced motorcycle with the lousy driveability issues.

BTW, how long do you think the typical automotive company would get away with selling vehicles that ran as poorly as a stock Harley?  And how long do you think the manufacturer would get away with openly and brazenly selling devices to half their customers to defeat the emissions system?  I think it's well past time for the regulators to stop giving H-D a free pass, and start holding them accountable. 


Jerry

[CVORick]

Regulation is what got us into this mess.  Do you honestly think MORE regulation will stop the MOCO and help the consumer?  I, for one, doubt it.

[grc]

Regulation is what got us into this mess.  Do you honestly think MORE regulation will stop the MOCO and help the consumer?  I, for one, doubt it.

Regulations haven't kept most of the other vehicular companies in the world from being able to sell products that actually work well right out of the box, without the customer spending $1000 or more to eliminate all the driveability problems.  Don't blame the regulations, blame the incompetent crooks at the MoCo.  And I'm not asking for MORE regulation, I'm asking that the EPA just enforce the regulations that already exist.  I'll guarantee you, if we in the auto industry had been allowed to pull the crap H-D has, and basically profit from selling devices to break the law, your new car or truck wouldn't run any better than your new Harley.  Until Harley isn't allowed to get away with this, you will always be in the position of having to retune your new bike if you want it to run decently.  And I'm not talking about increasing power, I'm just talking about normal driveability issues like overheating, stumbles, surging, stalling, etc.

Those people who just want to buy a new bike and ride it in stock form should not have to modify their bikes just to make them safe to operate and reasonably reliable.  Requiring H-D to provide bikes that run well out of the box, and not allowing them to profit from selling defeat devices, wouldn't affect your ability to modify your bike if you wanted to.  You would just have to buy your device from the aftermarket.  Works fine for all those other manufacturers, why should Harley get special treatment?


Jerry

[CVORick]

Regulations haven't kept most of the other vehicular companies in the world from being able to sell products that actually work well right out of the box, without the customer spending $1000 or more to eliminate all the driveability problems.  Don't blame the regulations, blame the incompetent crooks at the MoCo.  And I'm not asking for MORE regulation, I'm asking that the EPA just enforce the regulations that already exist.  I'll guarantee you, if we in the auto industry had been allowed to pull the crap H-D has, and basically profit from selling devices to break the law, your new car or truck wouldn't run any better than your new Harley.  Until Harley isn't allowed to get away with this, you will always be in the position of having to retune your new bike if you want it to run decently.  And I'm not talking about increasing power, I'm just talking about normal driveability issues like overheating, stumbles, surging, stalling, etc.

Those people who just want to buy a new bike and ride it in stock form should not have to modify their bikes just to make them safe to operate and reasonably reliable.  Requiring H-D to provide bikes that run well out of the box, and not allowing them to profit from selling defeat devices, wouldn't affect your ability to modify your bike if you wanted to.  You would just have to buy your device from the aftermarket.  Works fine for all those other manufacturers, why should Harley get special treatment?


Jerry

I see your point, Jerry.

[bigmuff]

The problem is Harley's stubbornness to update their technology.  It's basically an 80 year old engine design.  Time to stop worrying about "The Harley Sound" and use all the technological advances in engine design to build something quiet, efficient and cool-running.

Sure it won't sound the same but I think people aren't as hung up on potato-potato as the MoCo's marketing department thinks.  I once saw a TV show where Harley had a panel of judges to make sure the exhaust sound of a new bike met with approval.  You've got to be kidding me.

I would much rather have a counter-balanced, liquid-cooled engine that doesn't sound like a pushrod is about to come through the valve cover at any minute if that means giving up the fabled exhaust note.

And while they're at it they need to reduce the number of fastener types.  Working on a Harley is a nightmare which means manufacturing must take much longer than necessary.  You need literally three dozen different wrenches to do anything.  Some of the fasteners are hex head, others are Torx, others are cap screws, others are Philips.  You can take a Honda entirely apart with less than a dozen tools.  90% of the bolts are one of three tools.

The things people like about Harleys, IMHO, are the looks, the real metal and chrome and the non-disposable nature of the bike.  Import bikes all seem built to throw away: plasti-chrome, plastic fenders, etc.  If you maintain your Harley it will last a lifetime.

But I bet a lot of people would welcome FUNDAMENTAL improvements in ride-ability.  Harley's approach has been to apply band-aids to everything: compensating sprockets, cylinder shut-down, throttle management, etc., etc.  These are all just workarounds to fundamentally old, flawed technology.

I imagine that V-Rod engine, punched out and/or stroked a bit, would make a great touring bike power plant or at least the basis for a new engine.

Of course there are probably plenty who will disagree with me.  I'm curious to how many agree and how many disagree.

[Ed Ramberger - One_Screamin_Eagle]

My bike has never really run right from day one.  I had the dealer install V&H slip-ons before I picked it up and I paid for a SERT and dyno.

Finally this week I got tired of the bucking and hesitating and decided to hook up the SERT.

First surprise: no CD, no manual, no cables.  So off I go to the dealer and of course they don't have the CD and have to order it.  Then they rape me $40 for the cables.   THAT'S MSRP

Next surprise: the software sucks.  You can't resize the window and the window is too large to fit on my laptop's screen.  I was able to work around this but the software is clunky and the manual and help are terrible. YOU NEED TO ADJUST YOUR DISPLAY SETTINGS AND YOU WILL SEE IT ALL - YOU ARE PROBABLY AT TOO LOW OF A RESOLUTION

Next surprise: there are two identical connectors on the bike.  The on under the left cover is the correct one.  The one under the seat is not.  YEP - READ THE MANUAL/INSTRUCTIONS

Ultimate surprise: the ECM had the stock factory map in it... 
F*ckers never tuned the damn thing.  Just put the slip-ons on it and threw the SERT in the box with the take-off parts.  HOW DID YOU DETERMINE THIS - DID YOU PULL THE CAL ID?

So I modified the stock map by decreasing the AFR around a half point for everything under 3500 rpm and then smoothed the values above this.  .5 POINT IS NOT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RUNNING LIKE CRAP OR NOT ESPECIALLY WITH THE ADAPTIVE FUEL CAPABILITY.  YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF KEEPING IT IN CLOSED LOOP AND RAISING THE BIAS VALUES

Bike runs like a champ now.  No more hesitating and backfiring and after today's ride it was 24 degrees cooler than before.  SORRY, .5 AF IS NOT GOING TO LOWER THE TEMP THAT MUCH - YOUR SCIENTIFIC TEST IS FLAWED

Harley worries too much about the damn shareholders and not enough about the customer.  If they concentrated on making the customers happy the shareholders would be happy as a direct result.  YOU NEED TO READ THE MANUAL A LITTLE AND STOP MAKING ASSUMPTIONS