Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hilly13]

Think you fellas covered it 

[hrdtail78]

.. If you know how to tune a carb and ignition, Tmax is the way to go.. In fact it's easier to use and you don't get gas on your hands..

Max

And it's about as sophisticated as a Mik also.  I like the tmax and they are good for a few things.  Until the other companies catch up to a 2 bar MAP sensor they rule for that, but I do believe we are talking natural aspirated for 95% of the engines I am going to tune.  VE tables, front and rear, w/ a MAP load fuel table wins hand down for me all day long.  But I guess the tuning strategy of 14:1 everywhere and 12.8 for WOT is good enough for some.

What's the sample rate of the tmax broad band sensors?  What is tmax doing for temp and pressure variations?  Do you leave the sensors in forever or does tmax recommend taking them out and run OL after the tune?  How do they work with bikes with cats still installed?

[Max Headflow]

I'm assuming that you do know that the TTS does not reside on the bike?  It's merely an interface between the laptop and the ECM that allows communication and monitoring of systems while hooked up via cables to the data port on the bike.  The "marriage" simply means you can't use the "Dongle" to talk to another bike's ECM after it has interfaced with one ECM.

And you are correct in your analogy of the Tmax...old technology that does not have the capabilities of the Dephi system that comes stock on the bike.

But, if it works for you and you like the results, nothing else matters.  The point is that the Tmax is NOT as capable as the Delphi ECM.  That's a fact.  Period.

The kind of shows you don't have a clue in the long term.. Once married and you want a divorce.. She takes the house..    You can't sell it what you gonna live in?  Do you have a clue as to whet the technologies are? Tell us here.. Tell how much better they are..

Max

[Steve Cole]

Bruce

Not sure what you think is going on but the TMax has it's issues just as the Delphi does. Also, when you want to sell the bike with a TMax you going to be able to remove it and sell the bike without? Not a chance if the bikes modified, so you sell it with the bike. SAME SAME

So how well does the TMax do knock retard? Sure seems like you got a bug up your ass and that's not you from what I know. I know your happy with your TMax's and that's all well and good but let's keep the rumor BS down if we can. Like you said you've been able to buy plenty of them from people who have not been able to get them to work properly.

[Max Headflow]

Steve,,
Yes you are correct respects.. Once you've gone down the performance path.. Still you can't sell the TTS if you wanted to..

Are the maps retrievable..I understand on the power vision they are.. ..

I'm assuming that you do know that the TTS does not reside on the bike?

Since Steve is replying to this thread. Maybe he can explain it to you.. As I uderstand it is it a flash reprogram of certain section of the unit.. Maybe all cept the RTOS..

  The point is that the Tmax is NOT as capable as the Delphi ECM.  That's a fact.  Period.

Haven't a clue as to what you mean here.. One is replaced with the other..  Do you? Motorcycle still runs well..

Max

[hrdtail78]

Max,

You have over 13,499 post on another forum.  I have much respect for you.  Just got to question your last 10 on here.

TTS vs Tmax or any other.  When things don't go as planned, there is no good starter cal, or just wrong parts.   TTS basically lets you build a calibration from scratch.  Most access to an ECM.  Even more than Tmax into their ECM.  It really is the most tools in the box.

You can take a stock 2013 FL and do a stage 1.  Tune to 13.2 and it will run better than it did stock.  Add a bolt in cam and we get the best bang for the buck vtwins have seen.  Tune is on and the thing will simply S&G.  110tq 100hp all day long if backed by a good stage 1.  89 stroker evo's w/ headwork and all the money you got in a FXR don't run like these new bikes.  Our tuning strategies need to advance also.

[Max Headflow]

hrdtail78,

I'm not sure what the question is.. Is it whether or not on can create their own map? Then no there is not a map creator.. You need to start with a base map of some sort and go from there.. Is it an issue, I don't think so.. You end up starting from an approximated map in either case.. With Tmax, you can pull a number of maps and select what you want from any of them an cut / paste from one to the other (advanced feature).

Using the auto tune will tell you how close the current map is as far as AFR goes.. The nice thing is that when changing small things a little at a time you and only need to ride the bike.. In many cases an updated autotune map is a post process to the change gut to see how the Tmax did..

I can't knock Delphi / TTS systems as far as capabilities go. There is a reason why HD chose to use it. For the hobbiest / shade tree the Tmax is easier to use.. Both have their learning curve.

I see that TTS is now trying to extend the AFR tuning range for V tunes.. It sounds like they are moving to a more complete closed loop system like Tmax..

Still the only way to guarantee top performance is to use a Dyno.

Max

[turboprop]

I like the T-Max, also like TTS, I do have a dyno and can tune both systems pretty easily. That being said, I prefer TMax and recommend it to my buddies for the same reasons that Max has said.

Will add that last year I did a side by side comparison between a TTS tune and a TMax tune. Admittedly, this was on my mild 2005 bagger (that I retrofitted NBs to) and the runs were a few months apart, but the hp/tq curves were identicle and power output was within the variance of the dyno (3 hp difference).

As for the knock retard and timing in general, I like that TMax does not auto adjust timing the way TTS does.

As for resale, lots of different scenarios, I think for the 120R crowd that TMax is the better option. The owner pulls the original motor and ECM and can easily put them back in when its time to sell the bike. This leaves him with a TMax that can be sold or used on the next bike as its not married to anything.

I think maybe the reason why their is so much online discussion about TTS, which some will call support, is because it is not as easy to use as TMax and requires allot more help. Zippers has put out many professional, factory produced videos showing how to install and tune TMax that the owners of TMax systems simply do not NEED all this online chatter.

Taste great vs less filling, my vote is taste great.

[mayor]

I think what Max is very clumsily trying to say/prove is both systems work in the right hands.  Max has done from mild to wild with the Tmax, with minimum issues.  He's practically built maps from scratch when he's made throttle body changes (Tmax is TPS based).  He also has a very good understanding of timing, which is the part that most Tmax owners don't realize is not auto tuned.  He understands the limits, and he's not afraid of the system. I can agree with Max, most of the time when folks have had an issue with the Tmax it is due to not understanding the limits of the system and not understanding enough basic tuning to correct for problems.  By reading some of the comments here, I think a lot of you guys think that Max is cutting on TTS.  I don't think that's the case, I think he is simply defending a product he likes and is pointing out perceived weaknesses in a product that he doesn't totally understand.   

I've used both systems, and I can't say that one is out right superior to another since the goals that someone has is what is going to dictate which is better for them.  For closed loop fuel control, the Tmax system works very well.  Anytime I've had my Tmax bike on a dyno, the wide open throttle was table top flat (ok, well with in the expected margin of error Steve  ).   The trick to getting good wide open fuel control with the Tmax is you have to allow the system to take measurements from there so it knows what to do to make adjustments to reach the desired goal, and most of the time when guys have mixed results at wide open it is due to them not taking enough readings in that range.  I know Max, and I know collecting data at wide open isn't an issue for him. 

For timing control, the alpha-N system the Tmax uses is an outdated way to handle timing.  I would take speed density for timing anyday over alpha-N.  This doesn't mean one can't make Alpha-N work.  When I had a Tmax bike, my TTS vtuned bike and Tmax bike would get with in fractions of a MPG within each other on the same trip.  The one scenario that the Alpha-N system the Tmax has with timing is MAP is not a factor, long cam high compression builds are much more tuner friendly.  That's never been an issue for me since I'm compressionally challenged, but I think that this favors Max's build preferences. 

[mayor]

So how well does the TMax do knock retard?

about as well as a carb bike, but then again one doesn't have to worry about whether the plugs, wires, or some sort of unknown outer space phenomenon is making a mess of the timing with ghost retards either.   

[Max Headflow]

about as well as a carb bike, but then again one doesn't have to worry about whether the plugs, wires, or some sort of unknown outer space phenomenon is making a mess of the timing with ghost retards either.   

As mayor says you done need it..  Unless you want to run lean..

Max

[eleft36]

I like the T-Max, also like TTS, I do have a dyno and can tune both systems pretty easily. That being said, I prefer TMax and recommend it to my buddies for the same reasons that Max has said.

Will add that last year I did a side by side comparison between a TTS tune and a TMax tune. Admittedly, this was on my mild 2005 bagger (that I retrofitted NBs to) and the runs were a few months apart, but the hp/tq curves were identicle and power output was within the variance of the dyno (3 hp difference).

As for the knock retard and timing in general, I like that TMax does not auto adjust timing the way TTS does.

As for resale, lots of different scenarios, I think for the 120R crowd that TMax is the better option. The owner pulls the original motor and ECM and can easily put them back in when its time to sell the bike. This leaves him with a TMax that can be sold or used on the next bike as its not married to anything.

I think maybe the reason why their is so much online discussion about TTS, which some will call support, is because it is not as easy to use as TMax and requires allot more help. Zippers has put out many professional, factory produced videos showing how to install and tune TMax that the owners of TMax systems simply do not NEED all this online chatter.

Taste great vs less filling, my vote is taste great.

 

Al

[Hilly13]

about as well as a carb bike, but then again one doesn't have to worry about whether the plugs, wires, or some sort of unknown outer space phenomenon is making a mess of the timing with ghost retards either.   

Just so folks watching this hokus pokus don't get the wrong idea, that ghost retard issue is a Delphi issue not a TTS issue, TTS is just a device for tuning the stock Delphi ecm, Tmax is a complete replacement ecm, two very different aproachs to achieve a set goal. Both work, the OP chose TTS because he could tune both his bikes for less than the cost of one Tmax, will they be perfectly tuned? probably not, will they be good enough? if he follows the directions yes, as for internet chatter, there are other ways to "spin" that, personely I think it means a lot of people that previously have not attempted tuning have put a foot in the water and are looking for advise, to me that's a good thing, no one was born a gun tuner were they?

[mayor]

Just so folks watching this hokus pokus don't get the wrong idea, that ghost retard issue is a Delphi issue not a TTS issue, TTS is just a device for tuning the stock Delphi ecm, Tmax is a complete replacement ecm, two very different approaches to achieve a set goal. Both work....

agreed.  The ghost retard is inherent in the Delphi system, and not an issue exclusive to TTS.  The other important thing to note is the knock retard actually works quite well.  It's just some fluke occurrences where it doesn't, which can get quite frustrating to those dealing with it. 

I think that anyone who doesn't think there is internet chatter regarding tuning the Tmax is kidding themselves.   There's plenty of "help me figure this out" threads out there with the Tmax as well.  A think the reason you see less today than the flash tuner threads is there is much less folks afraid to dip into flash tuning than there used to be. 

[hrdtail78]

Understanding of the tuning system you are working with is the key.  Mis understanding how the tmax works and knowing how to use it with in it's limitations can be said about them all.  Even a super E.

Comparing one tuning system to the other using WOT is a wash.  The vtwin style engine is forgiving at WOT.  Flat line, curvy line, 12.8 to 13.5 doesn't yeild much difference at all.  Or atleast none that my dyno can show.  Why would guys like the CV over the super E or G.  It's not WOT tuning.  It's the part throttle, roll on area's that is the bigger concern.

TTS gives you about 7 tables to deal with spark, and the choice to disable knock retard if one wish's.  This is not the simpliest appraoch, but the more thorough one for sure.  Might bring up a few topics on forums.  There are a lot of oil threads also.  Doesn't make it a bad thing.  And oh look.  There is some tmax chatter about fuel ramping right now on another forum.

Resale and marriage?  When I put out another $30,000 for a replacement for the FL I have now.  I guess I will just have to buck up and pay the $450 for a new TTS.  Or I can just keep it stock.  I have to wonder what ripping off the tuning system and trying to sell an untuned bike does for it's resale?